[ApparentlyNothing]

Originally Posted by I-Am-Snappy

that wasn't the original point of the thread though, the question was people wanting information about non-valve amps keep getting told to buy a valve amp regardless of what their original question was.


it depends how you class expensive, as a student with no income and tuition fees to pay i would say that (as much as i would love to) spending £350 on an all valve amp is a lot and unjustifiable. that is why i am going for the, cheaper and more practical, modelling amp.

also one of the main things putting me off a valve amp is the weight, i don't know if this is a 'myth' or not but the valve amps i had a look at in the shop were all incredibly heavy - not good when you have to lug them across campus every week!

God Bless, Rich

For the reasons you stated, it is reasonable to get a solid state amp. The whole point of our (tone purist tube freaks) defense is that 90% of the time, people that are asking about solid state amps have one of the misconceptions that Tom listed. More than likely, someone will still try to convince you that a tube amp wont be as much trouble as you think and that you should just save your money longer, but that is only because we know that it's worth it in terms of tone. It's true that full tube amps are not the most convenient of things to use. That's what the Line 6 POD is for, convenienve and flexibility. But to say that it's tone will ever match up to the real thing is bald faced lie.

What we're trying to get you to understand is that we have seen the light. We've heard "the tone". We've experienced all that a full tube amp has to offer. And we're never going to turn back. And we will continue to recommend them to you to our deaths because you won't ever really know all the tone a tube amp has to offer till you use one extensively in a band setting (not at a low volume in a store!).

Sheesh, I sound like I'm trying to convert you religiously.....

[Major Tom]

it depends how you class expensive, as a student with no income and tuition fees to pay i would say that (as much as i would love to) spending £350 on an all valve amp is a lot and unjustifiable. that is why i am going for the, cheaper and more practical, modelling amp.

also one of the main things putting me off a valve amp is the weight, i don't know if this is a 'myth' or not but the valve amps i had a look at in the shop were all incredibly heavy - not good when you have to lug them across campus every week!

I'm not up on the rate of exchange, but you CAN get a gig-worthy tube amp in this country for $200. used, in working order. There are some bargain priced new tube amps out there - Galaxie 25, Pignose (forget the model) that can be had for $300 or so.

All else being equal, yes a tube amp will weigh more than its solid state counterpart, since it has two large trannies instead of one - although a lot of SS amps (maybe most) don't have power transformers these days, they use "switching" technology for the power supply, making them even lighter. Don't get me started on the subject of the reliability of switching supplies vs transformer/rectifier supplies. I have used tube amps for like 30 years - for about 28 years I have used a 2 wheel hand truck to transport them. even my little 20 watters get heavy pretty quick when you have to carry it. I can put everything on it amp, effect rig, "gig bag" and a couple guitars. If you have a special need for a super light weight amp, then that should be a determining factor for you.

[Rich*]

I'm not up on the rate of exchange, but you CAN get a gig-worthy tube amp in this country for $200. used, in working order. There are some bargain priced new tube amps out there - Galaxie 25, Pignose (forget the model) that can be had for $300 or so.

unfortunately here in good old England these things are much more expensive, i have been looking around for ages and even on Ebay the cheapest i could find went for over £300

Sheesh, I sound like I'm trying to convert you religiously.....

hehe no worries, if i had the money (and a car!) i would be converted instantly
one day i will get a beautiful all tube amp and all my problems will be solved but until then i will have to go with the best my situation allows!


God Bless, Rich

[Major Tom]

What we're trying to get you to understand is that we have seen the light. We've heard "the tone". We've experienced all that a full tube amp has to offer. And we're never going to turn back. And we will continue to recommend them to you to our deaths because you won't ever really know all the tone a tube amp has to offer till you use one extensively in a band setting (not at a low volume in a store!).

Very well put ! That pretty much sums up the whole thing right there. And the band setting / not low volume comment is really the key. One analogy that I have used in the past for trying to explain something that has value but is hard to express or quantify, like a good guitar played thru a good amp - I'll modify it a little considering the format and audience. It's like your first relationship with a girl (assuming I'm talking to a male), after experiencing that, you won't go back. A relationship with a member of the opposite sex might not be perfect, it will be somewhat inconvenient (to say the least), expensive, and there are risks involved, etc. etc., but it sure beats the alternative.


No guts, no glory.

[redbaron]

FWIW i just bought a fender blues Jr for $275 shipped, and it only has 8 hours of play time on it.

Tubes aren't expensive if you're looking in the right places.

I wouldn't want to carry any amp every day, fwiw.

[Rainer.]

Wow... this thread just exploded overnight!

Originally Posted by Sinker

However, my original question wasn't "Why do you folks always recommend tube amps when somebody asks which amp to buy?" but rather "Why do you recommend tube amps to people that have already decided they don't want one?"

Have they really decided they don't want one yet, though? What I see mostly of is people who really honestly want a true tube sound, but are asking about (X) SS amp. What do I do? I reccomend a tube amp! That such a bad thing?

Originally Posted by LWatford

Well...Phil used a Yamaha G100 in the '80s, and Albert was known to use JC-120 and Acoustic amps...And lets not forget about Ty Tabor's "Mystery Amp"...a Gibson Lab Series (which was also a favorite of BB King).

Acoustic amps run solid state because of sound fidelity, no distortion at all. As far as acoustics go, that's a good thing.

[MJ_Avalanche]

You know what I think might be a common misconception about modeling amps... People think you can just plug it in and you'll have the perfect presets all ready to go. That's not the case... You have to play with it, and tweak it, and play with it, and tweak it, and pla... well, you get the picture.

I spent about 6 months trying to get 4 tones on my Spider that were good to use in church... So... 4 down, 8 to go. I still haven't filled 'em all up to this day. And I actually want to go back and re-tweak my current presets to make them even better. Oh, and the factory presets on any modeling amp I've played so far... Crap. The tweaked versions, good.

[EDIT: I had a link here to play for you guys, but apparently it's down... Poo! I would have liked to see your answers]

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by ApparentlyNothing

What we're trying to get you to understand is that we have seen the light. We've heard "the tone". We've experienced all that a full tube amp has to offer. And we're never going to turn back. And we will continue to recommend them to you to our deaths because you won't ever really know all the tone a tube amp has to offer till you use one extensively in a band setting (not at a low volume in a store!).

Sheesh, I sound like I'm trying to convert you religiously.....

Cool list MT. All false, and can be easily disproven.

they are expensive

Used?

tubes are expensive

You probably pay more for strings then for tubes, ever.

you have to change the tubes often

I have an amp that hasn't had a tube change for 40+ yrs. Still works great!

tubes will blow on you right at the worst moment

See above.

they emit gamma radiation

Even if that was true, that's dangerous how?

you have to buy expensive NOS tubes for them to sound good

You wonder why they're still selling the non-NOS tubes, huh?

they are too loud

Then don't buy such a big amp!

they have high voltage, and can vaporize a human

You probably deserved it.

tube amps are inconvenient

Well amps and guitars in general are inconvenient. Let's all just quit playing.

I can only buy brand new stuff, including underwear and guitars and amps.

The underwear I can understand...

Now, if I were to think someone were choosing a SS amp based on belief in any of the above myths I would recommend the real thing, and attempt to dispel the untruth.

And I'm behind ya all the way!

[gearup]

Boy , you sure opened up a can of worms.

SS amps are all marketed to the buyer on the premise that they sound "tube-like". Now some of that is the manufacturer telling you what will sound the best to YOUR ears, most of it stems from the fact that good ol trusty tubes just sound better.

If money is your barrier at purchase time, and you just can not get into a tube amp that will meet your needs, then buy SS. But sooner or later, if your serious about playing, you will be buying a tube amp.

You mentioned that you get similar responses when asking about pedals. Do you realize that EVERY real overdrive pedal I know of was designed to push a tube circuit. Tubes overdrive smoother than transistors. Ever listen to a distortion pedad and ask yourself why there is so much distortion even when turned way down. SS stuff "clips" the signal right from the git-go, so there is no way to realistically get that on the edge of breakup texture.


I will admit SS modelers do a pretty nice job at REALLY clean and REALLY HIGH gain, HOWEVER the middle areas, those on the verge tones and textures are why you just can not replace tubes.


So we are not really snobs, we just want the real thing.




COKE or SHASTA, you be the judge.

[CheshireCat]

Also, you often see a lot of custom amp makers who do what you might call boutique amps, and they are all tube.

For instance, here in Dallas, Doug Sewell does custom tube amps. They don't come cheap either. One model goes for some $1849, but when you hear it, you'll know why.

When I heard my Utah thru a $1849 Sewell Amp, which, btw, was only 15 watts, I couldn't believe my ears!! It sounded positively acoustic!!! Forget the Acoustic, full-spectrum SS amps!! This thing was incredible! Sweet! Rich!!

And then, when I turned the knob a few degrees on the gain, it went from rich, shimmery acoustic, to tasty distortion, unlike any I had ever heard before! Unreal!

And for 15 watts, that thing was so incredibly loud!! Wow!! The simple electronics keeps the signal clean and unfettered, and doesn't suck a lot of the juice out of the signal that other amps require, ergo, needing more wattage to crank the sound out. That 15 watts sounded like 50!!!!

That's what a good tube amp can do.

Chesh

[Major Tom]

COKE or SHASTA, you be the judge.

Coke or Diet Coke.

Rainer - good answers to my myths list - you are correct about the underwear, although realistically if they have been washed a couple times first.... some things I just don't care about the logic, I ain't gonna do it!

spent about 6 months trying to get 4 tones on my Spider that were good to use in church... So... 4 down, 8 to go. I still haven't filled 'em all up to this day. And I actually want to go back and re-tweak my current presets to make them even better. Oh, and the factory presets on any modeling amp I've played so far... Crap. The tweaked versions, good.

That is EXACTLY my experience with them. When is a mfr going to come out with one that you dial it to a Twin, and it sounds as close as it will ever get to a Twin, with only the Bass, Middle, Treble tweaks that work like the real thing. Why do modelers sound like doodoo until you have messed with them for hours on end. Seriously, if I were to try to use one live it would literally distract me to the point of wanting to quit! I would always be like: "wait, I think that 4x10 cab model had a little more mids than this vintage 1x12, hmmm....lemme try that one..."

This is a lively discussion, ain't it.

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by MJ_Avalanche

You know what I think might be a common misconception about modeling amps... People think you can just plug it in and you'll have the perfect presets all ready to go. That's not the case... You have to play with it, and tweak it, and play with it, and tweak it, and pla... well, you get the picture.

I spent about 6 months trying to get 4 tones on my Spider that were good to use in church... So... 4 down, 8 to go. I still haven't filled 'em all up to this day. And I actually want to go back and re-tweak my current presets to make them even better. Oh, and the factory presets on any modeling amp I've played so far... Crap. The tweaked versions, good.

[EDIT: I had a link here to play for you guys, but apparently it's down... Poo! I would have liked to see your answers]

My bad experience:

I was at a School band concert with my guitar. The only amp they have out there is this little Line 6 Spyder, which they give me the convenient 30 seconds before the show to figure out how to use it. Short story, got a bad mix, and just didn't sound that great... Now if a simpler amp was up there...

Originally Posted by Major Tom

Coke or Diet Coke.

Coke or Diet (insert bargain brand name here) Cola.

Rainer - good answers to my myths list - you are correct about the underwear, although realistically if they have been washed a couple times first.... some things I just don't care about the logic, I ain't gonna do it!

Thanks. And yeah...

That is EXACTLY my experience with them. When is a mfr going to come out with one that you dial it to a Twin, and it sounds as close as it will ever get to a Twin, with only the Bass, Middle, Treble tweaks that work like the real thing. Why do modelers sound like doodoo until you have messed with them for hours on end. Seriously, if I were to try to use one live it would literally distract me to the point of wanting to quit! I would always be like: "wait, I think that 4x10 cab model had a little more mids than this vintage 1x12, hmmm....lemme try that one..."

My thoughts exactly! I've never liked modeling amps. I tried a Cyber Twin before, tested out the "Vintage British OD" preset, and... "Dang, this sounds like crap!"...

This is a lively discussion, ain't it.

You know it!

[MJ_Avalanche]

Originally Posted by rainer123

My bad experience:

I was at a School band concert with my guitar. The only amp they have out there is this little Line 6 Spyder, which they give me the convenient 30 seconds before the show to figure out how to use it. Short story, got a bad mix, and just didn't sound that great... Now if a simpler amp was up there...

Heck, if I had all of 30 seconds to set up, I think even I'd prefer a tube amp!

But yeah... it does affirm my point... Takes work to get modeling amps to sound good.

And with that, I'm outta here, 'cause that's the last point I'll make in this here thread.

[Visirale]

Originally Posted by rainer123

Even if that was true, that's dangerous how?

Even though it's not true...

From chapter 22 of my chem book :P

"Gamma rays are high-energy electromagnetic waves emitted from a nucleus as it changes from an excited state to a ground energy state."

They are the most harmful radioactive waves. No lead walls or concrete barriers are gonna save you from these babies. You're pretty much dead if you were to ever encounter any.

But this is all pointless, because its a myth, and a very funny one at that.

Oh and for a few posts back on "that's the kind of rig you get once you're in a band" (sorry, grossly misworded I'm sure), I'm the kind of person that would rather not shoot around the bush, and bite the bullet. Why have to go through more amps than need be? I use that philosophy on a lot of my spendings. I don't like marginal things. I'd rather save longer and get something I really want .

[Major Tom]

I made up the gamma ray thing....