[Casey]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

What? There isn't any high voltage stuff exposed, its all inside the chassis, which is grounded except for guts inside the tubes. If you have a broken tube, more than likely it ended up blowing a fuse, so the high voltage potential there would be gone. If the thing is turned on, the tubes are too hot to be squeezing hard enough to break the glass, exposing the high voltage potential. If someone is silly enough to be poking his/her finger into the glass shards of a hot broken power tube, in the back of a tube amp, with the amp turned on.....well, remember that there are benefits to thinning the herd.

You are probably more likely to get killed on the way to where you were going to use it by a drunk driver in a dark green '78 Buick Riviera, ramming the back end of your vehicle, shoving the neck of your guitar (stored in the back) thru the back of your seat, right thru your spleen and 8 other assorted organs, right thru your rib cage, snap, and hitting the #4 preset button on your in-dash radio (which survived the crash), set the day before by your Dad to a creepy oldies station, and the song "We've Only Just Begun" by the Carpenters is the last sound you hear on this earth....

You are an artist. I will now proceed to go check out every post you've ever made, and save it in a special file on all of my computers, in addition to printing them and keeping them in a special file.

Case

[spmantar]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

What? There isn't any high voltage stuff exposed, its all inside the chassis, which is grounded except for guts inside the tubes. If you have a broken tube, more than likely it ended up blowing a fuse, so the high voltage potential there would be gone. If the thing is turned on, the tubes are too hot to be squeezing hard enough to break the glass, exposing the high voltage potential. If someone is silly enough to be poking his/her finger into the glass shards of a hot broken power tube, in the back of a tube amp, with the amp turned on.....well, remember that there are benefits to thinning the herd.

You are probably more likely to get killed on the way to where you were going to use it by a drunk driver in a dark green '78 Buick Riviera, ramming the back end of your vehicle, shoving the neck of your guitar (stored in the back) thru the back of your seat, right thru your spleen and 8 other assorted organs, right thru your rib cage, snap, and hitting the #4 preset button on your in-dash radio (which survived the crash), set the day before by your Dad to a creepy oldies station, and the song "We've Only Just Begun" by the Carpenters is the last sound you hear on this earth....

That was awesome, Tom.

By the way CheshireCat, Visirale must be wise beyond his years, too.

[Major Tom]

I really wouldn't call it tube snobbery. I think the moment you hear a very good tube amp with sweet cleans and the sought-after natural breakup caused by the tubes, most people get hooked. And once a guitarist gets a good one, he is justifiably proud of it. This will cause us to brag about it sometimes and these forums give us a chance to "show off".

Good points and hits the heart of the matter - I often liken modelers and SS amps vs. tube amps to instant vs. real mashed 'taters. If you grew up eating, and all you ever knew was the instants, you may well be happy with them (even though deep down in your innermost being, subconciously you know something isn't quite right). If you were to ever eat some real 'taters cooked properly and made with real butter, you would probably never go back.

Now one advantage to the SS stuff - since it is all simulated, whatever it sounds like for good or bad is pretty much what it will sound like at any volume, which is a good thing. Tube amps will not get you all the way to that sweet place unless you get the power tubes involved in a big way. Master volume on 3 won't get you to guitartubefignugen; preamp tube distortion is only part of the whole "recipe", and isn't that great on its own. Since we tend to buy amps that are much bigger/louder than we need, many of us with the tube amps don't get it, and some even end up going over to the other side...

But if you are even going to entertain the idea of a SS amp modeling a tube amp, then don't even cast askance glances at those who you would classify as "tube snobs" because they, in fact, are playing the very thing that you are trying to model.

Good point, and eloquent as usual. Ain't nothing like the real thing.

Seriously, I will be the first to admit that modelers can sound great in the context of a live mix, particularly for either real clean, or very distorted tones, since lack of dynamics and subtle nuances are lost in that application for the most part, not to mention they have a direct out for the soundman, etc. I personally just can't grok the solid state stuff, modelling or otherwise, and it is a weakness of mine is that I need to feel confident about the overall guitar tone that hits my ears. Otherwise it is a distraction to me, especially given the the infinite level of tweakability - 32 amp models, 18 cabinet models, parameter after parameter - I would be forever trying to get it to sound like what's in my head and never quite attaining it. I have a Line 6 in my garage that belongs to the church, I messed with it for a couple hours one night thinking I might start using it instead of schlepping my own in every week. A whole evening of trying every combination, and trying to get something close to "my sound" - edge of distortion to mild overdrive tones - which seem to be what modelers are the weakest. Yuck, lots of redundant models, and lots of over the top distorted ones. Not a single one as good as any of my amps. 57 channels and nothing on. Gave up, a year later still schleppng an amp every week...

Now the church paid like $1100.00 for that amp and foot-controller according to the pastor's memory. Its a Line 6 Flextone II 1x12. How much is that worth today?

You know, Tom, I really think you should be the one to use the Cheshire Cat pic I have in my avvy for your avvy. Given how creepy that scenario was, that pic is probably better suited to you.

That is a delicious pic. I'm sick and in need of HELP!!!

Seriously, for many years I drove little hatchback coupes - a Nissan Z and then a Mazda RX7. One day while loading up my Mazda for a gig or practice I looked at the guitar case - the way it was loaded front to back, thought about what was inside it, remembering something I had read or heard about serious injuries sustained in car wrecks from items carried in the car, or something...Anyway I started thinking, "what if some drunk were to slam into the back of my car; the rear of the Mazda would accordian up, and that guitar could literally impale me! Or even just force the seat forward and smashing my face up against the glass. Hey maybe some will think I was being a little too cautious, but it ain't like it took any extra effort. You never know.

[CheshireCat]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

Now the church paid like $1100.00 for that amp and foot-controller according to the pastor's memory. Its a Line 6 Flextone II 1x12. How much is that worth today?

Hey, isn't that a Commodore 64 propping open the door to the back pantry?

Chesh

All the youngin's are right now scratching their heads and asking, "what's a Commodore 64" . . . . that's kinda the point.

[Major Tom]

You are an artist. I will now proceed to go check out every post you've ever made, and save it in a special file on all of my computers, in addition to printing them and keeping them in a special file.

Let me guess, as a special project for your psych class... Yeah, I'm an artist and my medium is CHAOS!

But anyway that's fine, it wouldn't be the first....or the last....

If not, people are going to be doubting YOUR sanity.

[Sinker]

Wow, that was fun! I asked the question then had to be away from my computer for a while. (It's a Mac Plus, btw.....looks like a toaster, boots from a floppy). Tom, you scare me, man. You should collect some of your ideas and send them to Stephen King! Tom and Chesh, I may be older than both of you.

I agree with every argument about the superiority of the tube amp. The warm tone cannot yet be successfully duplicated by modelling amps. The response (attack sensitivity) alone sets it apart from the SS world. However, my original question wasn't "Why do you folks always recommend tube amps when somebody asks which amp to buy?" but rather "Why do you recommend tube amps to people that have already decided they don't want one?"

To use the instant mashed potato analogy, what if somebody asked which was the better instand mashed potato, Ore-Ida or Hungry Jack? They've either already thought about the trade-offs and have made a decision to go with instant. Maybe they even prefer instant. Maybe it's a convenience issue. Maybe they have a obsessive-compulsive phobia about lumps. Regardless, telling them that (in your subjective opinion) that real mashed taters are better than instant helps them not one bit.

Another question. Can you listen to a recording of an electric guitar and determine the rig? Single coil vs. humbucker shouldn't be too hard. How 'bout Pearly Gate vs a '59? And the biggie, could you tell a tube amp from a modelling amp in a recording?

Are you sure?

[MJ_Avalanche]

Originally Posted by CheshireCat

Hey, isn't that a Commodore 64 propping open the door to the back pantry?

Chesh

All the youngin's are right now scratching their heads and asking, "what's a Commodore 64" . . . . that's kinda the point.

Hehe... funny, but, a decent analogy... But not a great one considering that the C64 was fun, and actually quite valuable to a collector, such as I am.

Of course, this may just be me... but I don't care about resale value, since I'm not going to sell any of my gear.

[nate95366]

Guilty as charged. I am a tube snob. The others have shared my reasons for being so, and have done an excellent job at that, so I (as a tube snob) leave you to enjoy your instant potatoes (with "lite" margarine, nonfat sour cream, and live-forever-at-room-temperature-but-somehow-still-"real" bacon bits, of course).

Nate

[redbaron]

it's not that hard to tell a digital amp from a tube in a recording, especially when it's something where the power tubes would be running hot. Perhaps it's just a trained ear?

The problem for me with modeling amps, and the reason everyone is so gung ho about them is that "you can have so many different sounds!!!" which is a lousy reason in my opinion. If you don't settle on a tone that you like and satisfies you, and build yourself around it, you'll never really develop your sound. How many big name guitarists can you think of that have more than one sound (major components here).

I can't think of a single guitarist that has made it big that ran solid state.

pink floyd, Keaggy, Hendrix, SRV, Albert & BB King, kenny wayne shepherd, etc etc etc.

[Hopeful]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

Seriously, I will be the first to admit that modelers can sound great in the context of a live mix, particularly for either real clean, or very distorted tones, since lack of dynamics and subtle nuances are lost in that application for the most part, not to mention they have a direct out for the soundman, etc. I personally just can't grok the solid state stuff, modelling or otherwise, and it is a weakness of mine is that I need to feel confident about the overall guitar tone that hits my ears. Otherwise it is a distraction to me, especially given the the infinite level of tweakability - 32 amp models, 18 cabinet models, parameter after parameter - I would be forever trying to get it to sound like what's in my head and never quite attaining it. I have a Line 6 in my garage that belongs to the church, I messed with it for a couple hours one night thinking I might start using it instead of schlepping my own in every week. A whole evening of trying every combination, and trying to get something close to "my sound" - edge of distortion to mild overdrive tones - which seem to be what modelers are the weakest. Yuck, lots of redundant models, and lots of over the top distorted ones. Not a single one as good as any of my amps. 57 channels and nothing on. Gave up, a year later still schleppng an amp every week...

I have to admit that I got a Behringer V-Amp 2 because of all the combinations that were being touted and because I thought I would find "that sound". But, I don't use it much today - still trying to find the 3 or 4 settings that make me smile. It's a hard thing to admit and I can relate to the Line 6 story. Lincoln Brewster plays live through a Pod and he sounds very good! But, if you look at his website, you will see that he has a lot of vintage tube stuff that he uses on his recordings. Plus, I think he has the ability to make most equipment sound great - which cannot be overlooked. If you put more focus on acquiring equipment vs. acquiring playing skill, the search will lead to a lot of frustration. From what I've been reading, the preference for a tube amp comes from a lot of experience through owning and playing both types.

[Major Tom]

Another question. Can you listen to a recording of an electric guitar and determine the rig? Single coil vs. humbucker shouldn't be too hard. How 'bout Pearly Gate vs a '59? And the biggie, could you tell a tube amp from a modelling amp in a recording?

No, not necessarily - especially since a guitar's track recorded from an amp will have to be compressed if its less than moderately distorted; recordings have a limitation to the dynamic range available. In the context of a mix it is very hard to tell. That's not my point anyway - a golf fan, or even a golf pro watching a tournament on TV can't tell if a player is using golf clubs with real leather grips, but I can tell you that if Tiger Woods is used to that, he can certainly tell if his club tech (do they have those?) put vinyl wrap on there. And if has used both, and prefers the real thing because it has more friction, or "feel" or whatever - that's what he's probably going to recommend to someone asking "should I get vinyl or polyester simulated leather grips?". Get the leather. That doesn't make him and animal skin snob.

As far as the subtle differences of very similar guitar pickups, personally I think that is way over rated and over analyzed myself.

Maybe they have a obsessive-compulsive phobia about lumps. Regardless, telling them that (in your subjective opinion) that real mashed taters are better than instant helps them not one bit.

Well if they have issues like that, they probably need to stay off of the mashed potato discussion forums, 'cause one of the main topics of discussion will be about potato lumps Now my impression is that a lot of players want to stay away from the valve amps because they have bought into one or more myths about them:

they are expensive
tubes are expensive
you have to change the tubes often
tubes will blow on you right at the worst moment
they emit gamma radiation
you have to buy expensive NOS tubes for them to sound good
they are too loud
they have high voltage, and can vaporize a human
tube amps are inconvenient
I can only buy brand new stuff, including underwear and guitars and amps. oh my

Now, if I were to think someone were choosing a SS amp based on belief in any of the above myths I would recommend the real thing, and attempt to dispel the untruth.

No guts, no glory!

To use the instant mashed potato analogy, what if somebody asked which was the better instand mashed potato, Ore-Ida or Hungry Jack? They've either already thought about the trade-offs and have made a decision to go with instant. Maybe they even prefer instant.

That's fine but I'm not a potato snob just because I only use the real ones for live use. And if they ask me the Ore Ida vs. Hungry Sam, I would say what's the frickin' difference? If they only want the instants 'cause they heard the real ones are expensive, and hard to find in the store (!) I would say "no, they are not". If it were someone who was familiar with both and were making the decision based on real world potato savvy, rather than some silly myths, I wouldn't even make a suggestion in the thread...

Tom and Chesh, I may be older than both of you.

Say happy birthday, I'll be 49 yet this month.

[Hopeful]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

Say happy birthday, I'll be 49 yet this month.

Happy birthday! May 29th for me.

[Rich*]

that's what he's probably going to recommend to someone asking "should I get vinyl or polyester simulated leather grips?". Get the leather. That doesn't make him and animal skin snob.

that wasn't the original point of the thread though, the question was

Seems like an awful lot of questions about non-tube amps get answered with 'buy a tube amp.'

ex:
Q: I've narrowed my choices down to these two solid state amps, should I get A or B and why?
A: Neither, for the same money you can buy a tube amp.

people wanting information about non-valve amps keep getting told to buy a valve amp regardless of what their original question was.

Now my impression is that a lot of players want to stay away from the valve amps because they have bought into one or more myths about them:

they are expensive

it depends how you class expensive, as a student with no income and tuition fees to pay i would say that (as much as i would love to) spending £350 on an all valve amp is a lot and unjustifiable. that is why i am going for the, cheaper and more practical, modelling amp.

also one of the main things putting me off a valve amp is the weight, i don't know if this is a 'myth' or not but the valve amps i had a look at in the shop were all incredibly heavy - not good when you have to lug them across campus every week!

God Bless, Rich

[Hopeful]

Originally Posted by I-Am-Snappy

it depends how you class expensive, as a student with no income and tuition fees to pay i would say that (as much as i would love to) spending £350 on an all valve amp is a lot and unjustifiable. that is why i am going for the, cheaper and more practical, modelling amp.

also one of the main things putting me off a valve amp is the weight, i don't know if this is a 'myth' or not but the valve amps i had a look at in the shop were all incredibly heavy - not good when you have to lug them across campus every week!

God Bless, Rich

Rich, in your situation, whatever you can afford and carry makes sense. Even my 25 lb. Fender Champ 30 would get heavy after a while.

[LWatford]

Originally Posted by CheshireCat

Hey, isn't that a Commodore 64 propping open the door to the back pantry?

Chesh

All the youngin's are right now scratching their heads and asking, "what's a Commodore 64" . . . . that's kinda the point.

You may send any C64s my way...SIDD sound...ahh...

Originally Posted by redbaron

I can't think of a single guitarist that has made it big that ran solid state.

pink floyd, Keaggy, Hendrix, SRV, Albert & BB King, kenny wayne shepherd, etc etc etc.

Well...Phil used a Yamaha G100 in the '80s, and Albert was known to use JC-120 and Acoustic amps...And lets not forget about Ty Tabor's "Mystery Amp"...a Gibson Lab Series (which was also a favorite of BB King).