[Hopeful]

I think dcunning makes a good point that the ultimate judge of good sound is the audience that we play for, no matter what the type of music is. That being the case, it may not matter whether you're playing quality SS or tubes. As a musician, I know I prefer the sound of my tube amp over SS. Maybe it's because I know it's a copy of a real tube sound. But, I've also heard good Line 6's as a part of an audience. Lincoln Brewster apologetically states that his live setup is through a POD Pro and I absolutely love his tone (see current Worship Musician magazine interview). However, I keep wondering how much of what I love about it is good music being played well. From the point of view of a listener, I'm not sure if it really matters as long as it sounds good. I mean, isn't that why we play?

Personally, I looked at this thread as a light-hearted arena for each of us to tout our tube stuff (or SS if you wanted to). There is no doubt that the tube sound is the standard that SS emulation has attempted to copy. It might be that quality SS stuff has progressed so much that the difference between tubes and SS is not so great. Plus, you don't have to live with the factory presets on these emulation devices, which means you may be able to edit to a point where you're reasonably close to that tube sound you so love.

All this being said, we may be at the point where the audience is not able to perceive the difference anymore. On the other hand, if you had a crummy SS or a bad tube, you would still sound bad, to both musicians and the general listening public.

[dcunning30]

Thank you Hopeful,

It seems you were much more able to articulate the only point I have been trying to make. However I do admit I was offensive, and once again I apologize.

[Hopeful]

Originally Posted by dcunning30

Thank you Hopeful,

It seems you were much more able to articulate the only point I have been trying to make. I think I'm now persona-non-grata, so I'll be moseying along.

No, please stick around. Sometimes we need a reality check to get us thinking. I'm sure you have a lot of insight to share. As an owner of two tube amps, I took no offense to what you said. Plus, we are all one Body, right?

[What5647]

my two cents...

ok, most of you know i'm getting a SS amp. now SS amps still don't sound as good as tubes, but one day they should. think about it from an engineering perspective: everything that makes a tube amp sound the way it does is related to the physics of the tubes themselves. these characteristics can be measured, studied, and applied to SS amps. so in my opinion, in the future (or now, heck i don't know) SS amps and tube amps will both be valid options for good tone. and don't start saying i hate tubes, if i had oodles of money i'd get that krank combo, those things have really sweet tone. (IMO) and that's another thing: the amp you buy should be based on whether or not you like the tone. so you like the tone of a SS amp over that of a tube one? BIG DEAL! your audience will like or hate you based on what they hear, not whether or not you have SS or tube.

hope this made sense.

[Only Alive]

Originally Posted by What5647

so in my opinion, in the future (or now, heck i don't know) SS amps and tube amps will both be valid options for good tone.

Solid state is already a good option for tone. I loved my Roland Cube 30, killer tone from that little ss guy. I have no problems with solid state, I (and most professional guitarists) prefer tube. But you can still find many solid state amps with great tone.

-Nick

[CheshireCat]

Originally Posted by dcunning30

OK, my bad that I didn't read the previous 16 pages.

Well, no one expects you to read all 16 pages (tho, I'm the type who would, but pressing on), but we would just want for anyone posting to read enough to get where the conversation is going, and not carry over assumptions from other boards or forums. That's all.

But then again, I came on the board strong, so I apologize.

Thank you for acknowledging that. Very noble.

Chesh

[tht00]

Originally Posted by What5647

my two cents...

ok, most of you know i'm getting a SS amp. now SS amps still don't sound as good as tubes, but one day they should. think about it from an engineering perspective: everything that makes a tube amp sound the way it does is related to the physics of the tubes themselves. these characteristics can be measured, studied, and applied to SS amps. so in my opinion, in the future (or now, heck i don't know) SS amps and tube amps will both be valid options for good tone. and don't start saying i hate tubes, if i had oodles of money i'd get that krank combo, those things have really sweet tone. (IMO) and that's another thing: the amp you buy should be based on whether or not you like the tone. so you like the tone of a SS amp over that of a tube one? BIG DEAL! your audience will like or hate you based on what they hear, not whether or not you have SS or tube.

hope this made sense.

The main problem here is that electronics tend to go from an engineering perspective of how it works and how well it works; the reason tubes sound the way they do is because they color the tone; they don't amplify purely. For now, there isn't much demand for tube audio or tube emulation outside of the guitar world. Sure, there are some all out tube audiophiles, but you can count them out on any type of 'emulation'. Realistically, the demand to produce special 'tube emulation' semiconductors isn't there.

However, there are 2 positive things. The next wave of SS audio technology is digital, and that includes using microprocessors to program to be able to emulate the sound of tubes. These are becomming more popular and better- Roland Cubes, Vox Valvetronix, Digitech, etc...

The other thing I wanted to mention is that there are currently transistors that have been used to 'emulate' tube sound. Over at runoffgroove.com, there are quite a few examples of this... mostly done with the JFET 201(I'm finally tinkering with them). The characteristics are very similar, except at low voltage (4.5v at JFET drain, rather than 200-400v at tube plate). The recordings I've heard sound great. The schematic of the preamp of the amp can be taken, and with very little editing, have JFETS put in to replace the tubes. Pretty cool.

As far as tube vs SS vs modeling, I'm sitting on the fence. I can see both sides, and rather than commiting to one side or the other, I'll let my ears do the judging.

[Rainer.]

The Roland Jazz Chorus is one of the best amps produced, solid state, and there are modeling amps that try to replicate that amp's clean sound. Just shows that there is uniqueness among solid state amps, and that no one is saying that SS sucks (though I'm sure we're past that ). Just think about how nearly everyone likes at least one distortion box, and then it's pretty clear that most of us don't mind the wonderful world of SS distortion.

[Shredcheddar]

I agree. The Roland Jazz Chorus is absolutely my second-favorite amp (tube, solid-state, or otherwise), second to the Peavy Classic 30.

[Maxwell.Fourier]

The discussion of tubes vs. transistors is interesting but looking at just the active amplifier portion of the system ignores the other 80% of what makes the sound. The designer's choice of capacitors, resistors, and in some cases inductors has a very dramatic impact on the nature of the sound and the frequency and amplitude responses of the amplifier. And last but not least the output transformer has the final say in what comes out of the speakers. Every transformer is a bandpass device and the number of windings, the core material, physical geometry, and percentage of rated capacity it is run out can make dramatic differences in the bandwidth of the transformer. If you construct an (pre- or power) amplifer using MOSFETs with the same relative bias point as whatever tube is in there now (a tube not biased exactly in the center of its linear region will exhibit asymmetrical clipping so the MOSFET needs to be biased at the same relative point on its characteristic curve) and use it to replace the tube section with the same filtering and output transformer you'll never be able to tell the difference. You might say you could hear the difference if you knew what had been done, but if you didn't know you'd never be able to tell, no matter how experienced an ear you have. It's all about the frequency response of the system and the harmonics introduced by the nonlinearities regardless of whether they are created by tube clipping or solid state clipping. I've had tube amps that sounded raspier and buzzier than any solid state stuff I've every had. You can get the wasps-in-a-paper-bag sound out of tubes just as easily as transistors if you're not careful, just like you can get those warm, fat, and responsive tones that clean up nicely out of transistors if you are careful with the rest of the circuitry. Tubes aren't a magic cure-all for bad sounds just like transistors don't automatically sound bad because they are transistors. There's so much more to it than tubes vs. transistors...

Just my 2(sin(pi/4)-cos(pi/4)) cents worth...

Maxwell.Fourier

[dcunning30]

....and if you study schematics of modern tube amps as compared to older tube amps, you'll quickly notice there's a whole lot of silicone going on in there! Many people are concerned about true bypass, not knowing modern tube amps almost always use FET transistors for channel switching. Hand built, point-to-point soldered boutique amps tends to be the exception, BTW.

[refin]

I saw where this thread already has alot of pages on this subject----I might be offering something that has been said many times already.

It depends on what makes YOUR prop turn,and what gives YOU the sound you are looking for.I have had alot of amps in 38 years of playing,and most of them have been tube amps.I have collected vintage Fenders and Magnatones,and still have a nice stable of them.Having said all that,two amps that have really turned my head lately have been solid state!
(1) Fender Yale Reverb---this is a circa 1983ish amp that I believe was designed by Paul Rivera.It's kinda like the original Boogies,3 volumes,no channel switching.50 watts through 1-12" of pure touch sensitivity! I had 2 of them,but someone "borrowed" one without my permission .
(2) Peavey Bandit (transtube)---okay,put away the rotten tomatos and snickers . I went to rehearsal one night at a band member's studio and he had one already set up,so I figured what the heck.Plugged a strat in,dialed in the overdrive channel so there was just a little "chat" on the sound when pushed hard,and wow,this thing reacted very well.I was very surprised.

I am primarily a rock/blues/country player,so I don't need an amp that does metal sounds.The efficiency of solid state (plus less weight!) has pulled me into that direction for the most part.
In church,I'm using a Vox Valvetronix,the 15 watt job.They smoke! It is a tube amp in a way,because it uses a 12AX7 in the power stage---very sensitive to touch when set up.
The debate between tube and solid state will go on till He returns,just like Ford vs. Chevy.As stated earlier,find your sound---don't chase the status quo.If you are a pedal guy,the options widen.I've had amps that sounded like litter box fodder until a certain pedal was put in front,and maybe that pedal was a loser until it met that amp.It's like a marriage.Albert King and Frank Marino (Mahogany Rush) used to use those horrible '70s solid state Acoustic 150 amps,and smoked.
I try to look for amps that sound really good by themselves,then use pedals judiciously to enhance that amp,not inject tone into it.The reason so many people are trying to do tweed Bassman clones is because the sound is so pure without reverb or channel switching,and treats just about any pedal with love.
Sorry to be long winded,coffee is kicking in!

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by refin

.Albert King and Frank Marino (Mahogany Rush) used to use those horrible '70s solid state Acoustic 150 amps,and smoked.

ooo...you struck a nerve.

Acoustic amps are generally considered to be some of the finest solid state amplifiers ever made. I realize you've owned alot of tube amps and what not, and probably alot of solid state amps, but how many Acoustic amps have you owned? I currently own two, and would buy more based on the name alone, as the two I own are amazing fine products. The tone from my 150 leaves people going, "you mean that's not tube?" My Acoustic 150 is actually the amplifier that got me thinking that perhaps SS amps aren't that bad.

Oh and Albert King used an Acoustic 260 and 270. He's probably more famous for being a 270 user. The 270 was 340W RMS compared to the 125W Acoustic 150. Frank Marino also used an Acoustic 270.

[refin]

Originally Posted by thesteve

ooo...you struck a nerve.

Acoustic amps are generally considered to be some of the finest solid state amplifiers ever made. I realize you've owned alot of tube amps and what not, and probably alot of solid state amps, but how many Acoustic amps have you owned? I currently own two, and would buy more based on the name alone, as the two I own are amazing fine products. The tone from my 150 leaves people going, "you mean that's not tube?" My Acoustic 150 is actually the amplifier that got me thinking that perhaps SS amps aren't that bad.

Oh and Albert King used an Acoustic 260 and 270. He's probably more famous for being a 270 user. The 270 was 340W RMS compared to the 125W Acoustic 150. Frank Marino also used an Acoustic 270.

Actually,I called them "horrible" (tongue in cheek)because of the general opinion of most people,and how the line died a cruel death.I thought the Acoustics sounded great,maybe should have added that .I played with a guy in the '70s that had a LP Custom,a 150,and a wah pedal....turned up,that amp would scream.I would be very interested in a 150.
Thanks for the correction on the Albert King/Frank Marino statement---I thought they used the 150s.I never owned an Acoustic,seemed to always have an amp already back when they were popular.
Sorry about striking a nerve,I actually think they are great amps.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by refin

Actually,I called them "horrible" (tongue in cheek)because of the general opinion of most people,and how the line died a cruel death.I thought the Acoustics sounded great,maybe should have added that .I played with a guy in the '70s that had a LP Custom,a 150,and a wah pedal....turned up,that amp would scream.I would be very interested in a 150.
Thanks for the correction on the Albert King/Frank Marino statement---I thought they used the 150s.I never owned an Acoustic,seemed to always have an amp already back when they were popular.
Sorry about striking a nerve,I actually think they are great amps.

gotcha...I didn't realize the sarcasm in that part.
Most people I've found that think they're "horrible" brush them off on the basis of them being SS amps alone.
The 150 I have is a 1st Generation Acoustic (circa 1970) and the other one is a Wagner Era (1987 or later) Collaboration series. Of course eventually Acoustic would be bought by Samick (who i believe still owns the rights) and be sold in Japan and used as the amps in that horrible (no sarcasm there) movie "Josie and the Pussycats".