[dcunning30]

Originally Posted by Shredcheddar

And who says you have to spend $5,000 to get a good amp? Wattage for wattage, tube amps are "more expensive" than solid state, but when it comes down to the actual volume each puts out, there is basically no difference. A 30-watt $500 tube amp will match the output of a $500 80-watt solid state amp, and usually sound better in the process.

I don't think it's snobbery; to most tube users, it's common sense.

I was being facecious. Personally, I own a tube amp, a modelling amp, and a modelling multi-fx unit. I understand how getting "your" tone helps your confidence. But I can get a most satisfying tone from my tube amp and from my multi-fx. I'm not convinced that a tube amp is totally necessary to get a good tone. Obviously, tube amps have a preferred tone in most guitar applications, but you could give me a POD running straight to the board, and I still could get a satisfying tone.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by dcunning30

I was being facecious. Personally, I own a tube amp, a modelling amp, and a modelling multi-fx unit. I understand how getting "your" tone helps your confidence. But I can get a most satisfying tone from my tube amp and from my multi-fx. I'm not convinced that a tube amp is totally necessary to get a good tone. Obviously, tube amps have a preferred tone in most guitar applications, but you could give me a POD running straight to the board, and I still could get a satisfying tone.

If you use crappy gear, you can play like satch and still sound horrid.

[CheshireCat]

Originally Posted by dcunning30

you could give me a POD running straight to the board, and I still could get a satisfying tone.

Satisfying to who?

I guess I must have unsophisticated ears, but most tone I hear today sounds way overprocessed and sterile, with some quality about it that I experience as grating, but I can't put my finger on it. This goes all the way back to the shredders of the 80's.

However, give me almost anything before 1980 just about, and it sounds great to me. I've never had that problem with any of the classics.

This is funny since I was born in 1970, and while I had some formative years growing up in the 70's, truth is, I really didn' totally get into rock until the late, late 70's to early 80's, back when solid state was all the rage with all the new hair bands. So, you'd figure that I would just be all about solid state as well.

I didn't know anything about tuber snobbery back then; all I knew is that I knew what I liked.

Interesting.

Chesh

[ApparentlyNothing]

Originally Posted by dcunning30

He he he,

While all the tube-amp snobbery is going on, let me remind you of a fact:

When you play live, the audience will not be thinking "Wow, that $5,000 boutique class A, 18 watt amp sounds soooooooo awesome!" All they care about is were you playing well written songs, did you play them well, and did they have a good time watching you perform? Period!

Actually, that's exactly what I think when I go to shows. If a guitar player has awesome tone, I recognize it, and I appreciate them much more than if the guitar player had crappy tone. Crappy tone distracts me horribly. You could be the most amazing band, but if your tone sucks, I'm not gonna like you very much.

[Rainer.]

If you're on the stage, I agree that the audience doesn't care about the tone nearly as much as you do, however, recording is an important aspect of choosing an amp for many. I know that if I hear sucky tone in a recording it bothers me a lot. Live, it matters less, but it does matter still, as ApparentlyNothing said.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by dcunning30

He he he,

While all the tube-amp snobbery is going on, let me remind you of a fact:

When you play live, the audience will not be thinking "Wow, that $5,000 boutique class A, 18 watt amp sounds soooooooo awesome!" All they care about is were you playing well written songs, did you play them well, and did they have a good time watching you perform? Period!

...

sorry...you're wrong. part of playing a song well is getting the proper tone for a song. yeah, there's definitely a "showmanship" element live that has to do with your ability to convince the crowd you're a normal person and interact with the crowd and entertain, but i know my band gets alot of compliments for not just how well we entertain but also how GOOD we SOUND...the key to GOOD SOUND is a GOOD SETUP.

i've been to shows where i'll be hearing a band for the first time and if their tone grabs my attention then i'll stop and listen. if the first thing i hear is an icepick guitar riff that makes me want to put pointy things in my ears so i won't have to listen anymore, then i might listen long enough to get a feel for your band, but when people ask me about it often i'll say something like, "they were alright...i couldn't get past the fact that their guitar sounded like crap." sure people aren't impressed because you're playing a Matchless or a Bad Cat or a Mesa/Boogie...you'd could be playing a Pignose for all I care as long as it SOUNDS GOOD.

[Shredcheddar]

Originally Posted by dcunning30

I was being facecious. Personally, I own a tube amp, a modelling amp, and a modelling multi-fx unit. I understand how getting "your" tone helps your confidence. But I can get a most satisfying tone from my tube amp and from my multi-fx. I'm not convinced that a tube amp is totally necessary to get a good tone. Obviously, tube amps have a preferred tone in most guitar applications, but you could give me a POD running straight to the board, and I still could get a satisfying tone.

Facecious about the $5,000 part, I assume. It didn't seem that outrageous to me, actually. Class A carries quite a premium.

Yeah, I agree with what everyone else has said. Audience members (especially guitarists) really care and really do notice your tone. I'm personally not willing to subject my ears or my audience's ears to the tone of a POD straight to a mixing board. That may satisfy your ears, but... I don't understand why.

[Woltrap]

Always keep this in mind... It doesn't matter if you own a $5000 amp or a $300 amp...bad tone is bad tone! And tone is objective. What I think sounds good you may not. We all buy amps that are the best fit for our budget and we think they sound good.

I've tried to fall in love with Fender amps; owning several - Twin, Tremelux, Super Reverb, Deluxe. They aren't my sound. I used a Peavey Classic 30 over those because it was a better fit for me.

My current gigging amp is 15 watt, Class A Gibson Goldtone. For bigger gig's I hook a 412 up to it...works fine.

And what 'dcunning30' said about playing the right notes is VERY important...almost, if not equally, as important as getting the right feel. I believe (for a cover gig) it's more important to get the feel of a song than it is to get the sounds of the song.

[dcunning30]

I'm amused by the nerve I must have hit.

Peace guys, I'm just one guy with one guy's opinion. Anyway, I see a theme of responses that seem to suggest there are two types of amps, tube amps and crappy amps. Come on......

And of course a guitar player in the audience is going to notice the player on stage's gear, his tone, etc. In that thought, I have a story to tell:

I excidetly brought home Dream Theater's Scenes From New York DVD. I stuck it in my player and began taking it all in. I was watching The Dance of Eternity and was totally blown away by the high degree of musicianship! I played it over and over. I called my wife into the room and insisted that she sit down and watch it with me. And with breathless excitement, I asked her what she thought. Although she recognized the high level of musicianship, to her, it all sounded like just a bunch of noise. After I got over being so deflated with her response, I ended up learning a valuable lesson. That same lesson applies to this subject as well.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by dcunning30

I'm amused by the nerve I must have hit.

Peace guys, I'm just one guy with one guy's opinion. Anyway, I see a theme of responses that seem to suggest there are two types of amps, tube amps and crappy amps. Come on......

first off, remember that this is the amps and accesories forum...some...heck...MANY of us are ampaholics and/or amp junkies.

second, there hasn't really been a stream of posts say that there's "tube amps and crappy amps"...in fact, i'm probably one of the most stalwart defenders of solid state amplifiers on this forum (at least i feel that way sometimes). i run through my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe at one church I play at, and at the other i run through an Acoustic Control 150 through a Mesa/Boogie 4x12. the first is tube and the second is SS and i love them both.
however i fully understand that tone is subjective and i've spent alot of time trying to get a tone that sounds good to me. while you think your tone is great running a POD straight to board, alot of users could never be happy with a setup that doesn't allow them to overdrive a speaker.

[CheshireCat]

Originally Posted by dcunning30

I'm amused by the nerve I must have hit.

You know, I really don't know how to take that statement, apart from "smug".

Peace guys, I'm just one guy with one guy's opinion. Anyway, I see a theme of responses that seem to suggest there are two types of amps, tube amps and crappy amps. Come on......

Eh, hardly.

Remember, the original question was, "Why is it when I ask if I should get a particular tube modeling amp does everyone tell me to get a real tube amp? Is that a form of tube snobbery?" It wasn't, "Hey guys! Don't non-tube amps just plain suck!?!" I've seen those threads before, and this isn't one of them.

And of course a guitar player in the audience is going to notice the player on stage's gear, his tone, etc. In that thought, I have a story to tell:

I excidetly brought home Dream Theater's Scenes From New York DVD. I stuck it in my player and began taking it all in. I was watching The Dance of Eternity and was totally blown away by the high degree of musicianship! I played it over and over. I called my wife into the room and insisted that she sit down and watch it with me. And with breathless excitement, I asked her what she thought. Although she recognized the high level of musicianship, to her, it all sounded like just a bunch of noise. After I got over being so deflated with her response, I ended up learning a valuable lesson. That same lesson applies to this subject as well.

Interesting story, but your admonishment cuts both ways.

You don't go making the point about only guitarists and avowed gearheads picking-up on issues of quality of gear used, and then go on to illustrate that point with someone from the total, polar opposite end of that spectrum, namely your long-suffering wife who doesn't give a crap about self-congratulatory overplaying under the auspices of "virtuosity".

Don't get me wrong. Dream Theatre is a brilliant ensemble. In fact, one of my favorite tracks of theirs (if I remember correctly) was a cover of Iron Maiden's "the Trooper" with Bruce Dickenson on vocals. Pure magic. Of course, a lot of there stuff sounds like desperate attempts at fusion. They also sound like desperate ELP wannabes. Especially "Dance of Eternity" [read: "KarnEvil #9"]. Not bad, but ELP did it better. (Hmmmm, now lashings of Rush's "YYZ". They are well referenced, I'll give them that.)

Still, that said, that's a lot like taking someone who was raised on Hank Sr. and playing some Ornette Coleman for her. And, for the uninitiated, if you think Jazz can make your head hurt, well, Ornette Coleman had a reputation for making other Jazz player's heads hurt. Let's just say he took a deliciously and decidedly deconstructionist approach to Jazz arrangement and composition.

So, as she runs screaming, cringing, holding her ears for dear life, you flippantly and deflatedly remark to yourself, "Well, I guess she just doesn't get Jazz". Well, no kidding. Most Jazz lovers don't get Jazz, if that's your definition of Jazz. How about starting her out on some Miles Davis for instance? "So What", perhaps? Kind of Blue, perhaps?

A better test of your theory would be to have a rock music lover who isn't a player listen to two tunes by two different bands, one playing thru tube and the other thru solid state, and see what they think. For instance, perhaps both groups of equal competency doing a cover of the same song. That would be much more effective, and far more telling.

Chesh

[dcunning30]

Actually, I don't one any Line6 gear. I used the POD as an example because that's what Meshuggah uses for their live setup: POD Pro ---> mixing board. Marty Friedman recorded his solo CD using a BOSS GT-6. In his interview, he stated he planned on using real amps, but he found he preferred the tone he was getting out of the GT-6. My point is this: Although there are many good tube amps, there are also good modelling technology as well. You can't just say don't waste your money, only a tube amp will do. If I've seen that advice once, I've seen it a dozen times. It's just not applicable in every situation. For example, If I were in a covers band and had to buy an amp, I'd get far more mileage buying a Line6 Vetta over a high quality tube amp.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by dcunning30

Actually, I don't one any Line6 gear. I used the POD as an example because that's what Meshuggah uses for their live setup: POD Pro ---> mixing board. Marty Friedman recorded his solo CD using a BOSS GT-6. In his interview, he stated he planned on using real amps, but he found he preferred the tone he was getting out of the GT-6. My point is this: Although there are many good tube amps, there are also good modelling technology as well. You can't just say don't waste your money, only a tube amp will do. If I've seen that advice once, I've seen it a dozen times. It's just not applicable in every situation. For example, If I were in a covers band and had to buy an amp, I'd get far more mileage buying a Line6 Vetta over a high quality tube amp.

i think that argument's already been made, in terms of recording through digital and in terms of using a modeling amp for a cover band.

[dcunning30]

Originally Posted by thesteve

i think that argument's already been made, in terms of recording through digital and in terms of using a modeling amp for a cover band.

But Meshuggah used POD Pro live. And Dimebag used Randalls until Krank came up with a tube amp he was satisfied with. And I repeat my point, people can make valid alternative choices for amps beside tubes and they're not throwing their money away. That's is the summation of all my posts. Recalling the title of this thread is "Tube Snobbery"

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by dcunning30

But Meshuggah used POD Pro live. And Dimebag used Randalls until Krank came up with a tube amp he was satisfied with. And I repeat my point, people can make valid alternative choices for amps beside tubes and they're not throwing their money away. That's is the summation of all my posts. Recalling the title of this thread is "Tube Snobbery"

so basically what you're saying is you read the title and came to a bunch of conclusions without actually reading very much of the thread?