[Only Alive]

Originally Posted by PacerX

Ummm... says who? I've heard some really rotten tube amps in my time.

That comment bugged me. You can stop saying things about "rotton tube amps" because it's safe to say we're referring to music professionals (who obviously would use good tube amps). We're talking about good, working tube amps.

-Nick

[PacerX]

Originally Posted by Only Alive

That comment bugged me. You can stop saying things about "rotton tube amps" because it's safe to say we're referring to music professionals (who obviously would use good tube amps). We're talking about good, working tube amps.

-Nick

Oh...

So now we're going to narrow it down, and it's not ALL tube amps are better than ALL modelling amps?

OK, deal.

Glad we established that there are some truly awful tube amps out there who would find better uses as boat anchors, and that not everything with a 12AX7 and a pair (or more) of EL34's or 6L6GC's is automatically the end all and be all of amplification.

I can think of a couple manufacturers who would be better off making giant pet rocks or some other heavy and useless objects.

Sounds good!

[ApparentlyNothing]

I think the ratio of crappy tube amps to crappy digital amps would be 1 crappy tube amp for every 10 crappy digital amps. So our point still stands. Basically, digital amps are being made to emulate, and to deny that would be fooling yourself. Thus they will never create a unique sounding amp that sounds better than a comparably priced tube amp, because that's not what they're trying to make. So why should I spend that kind of money on an amp that tries to be like another?

I would reply to the rest, but I feel like it's just pointless now. We both have our opinion, and I can't exactly prove any of my points, and neither can you. So whatever.

[Only Alive]

Originally Posted by PacerX

Oh...

So now we're going to narrow it down, and it's not ALL tube amps are better than ALL modelling amps?

OK, deal.

Glad we established that there are some truly awful tube amps out there who would find better uses as boat anchors, and that not everything with a 12AX7 and a pair (or more) of EL34's or 6L6GC's is automatically the end all and be all of amplification.

I can think of a couple manufacturers who would be better off making giant pet rocks or some other heavy and useless objects.

Sounds good!

I don't think anyone said that every tube amp is gold, but your mentioning all the "crappy tube amps" you've heard in your time is like me going on about all the bad digital modeling I've heard (and I have heard some really, really bad digital stuff).

-Nick

[thesteve]

you know what'd be sweet...and you'd think they could do it with all this digital modeling junk...

is an amp that had a clean like a JC-120...but slowly broke up...and became rather warm, instead of just clipping hard like any other SS amp would do.

[nate95366]

Originally Posted by PacerX

If you want to hear what an amp really sounds like, a much lower gain or even clean setting is the ticket. Why? Because of what distortion really is... it's lopping off the top of the waveform... also called "clipping". Now, digital and analog and tube setups don't all clip quite the same way, but at it's core, "clipping" is hacking off part of the signal. When you do that, you minimized the differences, not accentuate them.

The clipping issue is, though, generally the main reason why guitarists who swear by tube amps use them. It's the when of the clipping equation, not just the how. Tube amps tend to have some give and take with clipping, allowing more expressive play. When you attack the guitar, the amp goes gently into clipping. When you back off, the amp backs off the clipping gently. With solid state technology, there is no "easing" into clipping, making it more difficult to play expressively. As far as I know, it's still the goal of modelling amp designers to emulate this gentle "ease in" clipping effect, and the sounds are getting better...and closer all the time. But they'll still be improving it 5 and 10 years from now, and the goal will likely still be the same.


Nate

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by nate95366

The clipping issue is, though, generally the main reason why guitarists who swear by tube amps use them. It's the when of the clipping equation, not just the how. Tube amps tend to have some give and take with clipping, allowing more expressive play. When you attack the guitar, the amp goes gently into clipping. When you back off, the amp backs off the clipping gently. With solid state technology, there is no "easing" into clipping, making it more difficult to play expressively. As far as I know, it's still the goal of modelling amp designers to emulate this gentle "ease in" clipping effect, and the sounds are getting better...and closer all the time. But they'll still be improving it 5 and 10 years from now, and the goal will likely still be the same.


Nate

the interesting thing is that tube-amp clipping was supposed to be emulated by MOSFET technology from nearly thirty years ago...and for awhile MOSFET amps were all over the place (in fact some higher end non-tube bass amps have MOSFET tech in them) however it was foudn that for guitar, even though MOSFET reacted a bit like tubes, it wasn't enough.

[PacerX]

Originally Posted by thesteve

you know what'd be sweet...and you'd think they could do it with all this digital modeling junk...

is an amp that had a clean like a JC-120...but slowly broke up...and became rather warm, instead of just clipping hard like any other SS amp would do.

Already done. A Vetta will do it multiple ways:

With a Vetta you can run two completely different amp models simultaneously, so you could, for instance, pick the JC-120 and then mate it with any amp of your choosing to give you the progressive break up dependant on pick attack.

This approach is listed here, about the middle of the page under "Q. What is the benefit of two amps at once?":

http://www.line6.com/vetta_ii/US/faq.htm#FAQ_07

The second approach is to reinvent the amplifier concept from the ground up and couple a few things together that would be wildly expensive to do out of hardware - but relatively simple and inexpensive to do with software. The preset is named "Line 6 Clean" and is described as follows:

"This was modelled on essentially grafting the preamp and tone stack of a Roland JC-120 to the poweramp and transformer of a classic Marshall JTM-45 tube head thereby giving you the crisp and clear front end typical of a solid state amp, but with a rich and satisfying tube amp-style bite as you turn it up."

One comment I used to hear from folks who had never owned one about high-end modelling amps was that they couldn't reproduce the ability of a tube amp to clean up or get dirty due to pick attack or rolling off the volume knob. Simply put, they can and do... Spyders may not, Vettas and AX2 most certainly do, and they behave very differently from model to model. Some are more sensitive and some less, just like in real life a Mesa Rectifier set on "Modern" and the gain set on "kill" won't display much of this tendency (it's pretty much going to be high-gain with less sensitivity to input since the preamp is pegged anyway), but a Twin right on the edge of breaking up will.

Originally Posted by Only Alive

I don't think anyone said that every tube amp is gold, but your mentioning all the "crappy tube amps" you've heard in your time is like me going on about all the bad digital modeling I've heard (and I have heard some really, really bad digital stuff).

-Nick

Agreed. There's nasty stuff from both sides, very much subject to our personal tastes.

Certain amps I hear some folks rave about or recommend for purchase sound little short of awful to my ear, much like you'll have some things you like and some things you don't.

Originally Posted by nate95366

The clipping issue is, though, generally the main reason why guitarists who swear by tube amps use them. It's the when of the clipping equation, not just the how. Tube amps tend to have some give and take with clipping, allowing more expressive play. When you attack the guitar, the amp goes gently into clipping. When you back off, the amp backs off the clipping gently. With solid state technology, there is no "easing" into clipping, making it more difficult to play expressively. As far as I know, it's still the goal of modelling amp designers to emulate this gentle "ease in" clipping effect, and the sounds are getting better...and closer all the time. But they'll still be improving it 5 and 10 years from now, and the goal will likely still be the same.


Nate

I'll certainly agree that solid-state amps have had issues with this, and it's a significant complaint. Top modelling amps, on the other hand, do it easily.

Maybe the debate should be broken up into three or four camps:

All Tube
Tube w/ offboard digital effects or tube/SS hybrids
All Solid State
Modelling

Much like tube/solid state hybrids are different than all tube amplifiers, modelling amps are much different than solid state amps.

[Only Alive]

Originally Posted by PacerX

Agreed. There's nasty stuff from both sides, very much subject to our personal tastes.

Certain amps I hear some folks rave about or recommend for purchase sound little short of awful to my ear, much like you'll some things you like and some things you don't.

Ok, we're good then.

-Nick

[maadio]

Originally Posted by PacerX

I'll certainly agree that solid-state amps have had issues with this, and it's a significant complaint. Top modelling amps, on the other hand, do it easily.

Maybe the debate should be broken up into three or four camps:

All Tube
Tube w/ offboard digital effects or tube/SS hybrids
All Solid State
Modelling

Much like tube/solid state hybrids are different than all tube amplifiers, modelling amps are much different than solid state amps.

Tubes. doesn't matter if you have digital effects (though I personally detest them.) But you should have tubes someplace, even if it's an outside preamp. (wooo baby)

That's my opinion.

[PacerX]

Originally Posted by Only Alive

Ok, we're good then.

-Nick

Yep, seems like a good conversation. Nobody ended up with a bloody nose or anything!

[tht00]

Originally Posted by maadio

Tubes. doesn't matter if you have digital effects (though I personally detest them.) But you should have tubes someplace, even if it's an outside preamp. (wooo baby)

That's my opinion.

hmm... i either go with 1) an all tube amp... or 2) a good modeling amp. tubes or no tubes, i simply want 'tube tone'... and the vast majority of the time, an external tube preamp won't get you that.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by tht00

hmm... i either go with 1) an all tube amp... or 2) a good modeling amp. tubes or no tubes, i simply want 'tube tone'... and the vast majority of the time, an external tube preamp won't get you that.

an external tube preamp would get you pre-amp tube power...they will add some warmth...you just won't be able to push over a power tube section.

[PacerX]

Originally Posted by thesteve

an external tube preamp would get you pre-amp tube power...they will add some warmth...you just won't be able to push over a power tube section.

Maybe combining the digital front-end with a rack tube power amp would be the answer in that case, something like:

ADA MP-1
TC Electronics G-Force or Rocktron Intellifex
Mesa Simulclass 2/90
Power brake
4x12 or 2x12 cabinet

Then you've got all that tasty power amp distortion to play with and the flexibility of having a midi controller calling the shots - footswitch control might be an issue, so you might end up with a rackmount POD xt and floorboard too.

[thesteve]

Originally Posted by PacerX

Maybe combining the digital front-end with a rack tube power amp would be the answer in that case, something like:

ADA MP-1
TC Electronics G-Force or Rocktron Intellifex
Mesa Simulclass 2/90
Power brake
4x12 or 2x12 cabinet

Then you've got all that tasty power amp distortion to play with and the flexibility of having a midi controller calling the shots - footswitch control might be an issue, so you might end up with a rackmount POD xt and floorboard too.

i've never tried tying a digital front-end (i.e. PODxt) with a tube power amp...and that may very well be the solution. I know the problem with running a digital modeler like a POD into a tube combo or head is the fact that you end up double-harmonizing the signal...because you take the digital model of a tube amp and then add all of the tube amps natural harmonics into the signal...it just ends up sounding worse than either would alone.