Tube snobbery?

**thesteve** · 11-19-2004, 07:08 PM

of course, because anyone who disagrees with you is inherently wrong. albert king must've been a fool.

Woltrap · 12-10-2004, 01:35 PM

The argument that SS amps are better because of options and tube amps are better because...well...there just because... is pretty pointless.

Here's my 2 cents:

Let's start with the live environment. Why do you need an amp that 400 amp sounds and 938 effects? Why do you need a "one trick pony" tube amp? I've seen a cover band play D-Lite's Groove Is In The Heart and then play Metallica's Enter Sandman...and NAIL both song. How could they do that? It wasn't about the sounds they were producing, it was about capturing the feel. One guitarist played a Mesa/Boogie Mark IV and the other played a borrowed Mark III and used a Rocktron Pro Gap for distortion. There was never a need for sparkling clean nor the need for blistering gain. It was all about the feel.

Let's take it up a notch and talk about a couple of pros and what they use live. Lincoln Brewster is a KILLER player, and he's has amazing tone to boot. What does he use live? A Line 6 Pod... He also uses it in the studio. I couldn't believe it! On the other hand; Eric Johnson. The dude tours with 2 Marshall 50 watt or 100 watt half stacks and 2 Fenders of some varity; Twins, Deluxes, Dual Showmans. His tone is legenday. He is legenday. Two great players with opposite rigs.

What ever works for you...works for you. I believe any amp can sound great when used to better the song. That's why there are no rules in the studio. I've heard amazing sounds produced by a SS Silvertone and a $100 Dan Electro and I've heard amazing sounds out of a $3800 Komet thru a vintage Marshall 412 using a vintage Les Paul Custom.

Here's a quick test...listen to this sample and tell me what kind of amps I used.

What do I play live? Hee hee...

1974 Marshall 100watt JMP thru a 1972 Marshall 412
Gibson GA-15RV - 15 watt Class A amp - and it's just as loud as the Marshall
I also have a butt-load of pedals...

Peace,
Mark

PianoMan · 12-10-2004, 03:17 PM

I agree that the artist has just as much to do with the sound as the gear. Quality gear can't make a bad player sound good.

On another note, Lincoln Brewster now uses stomp boxes live now. His tone with a POD was still awesome though!

Woltrap · 12-10-2004, 04:43 PM

Your right! A bad player on great gear will sound like a bad player on bad gear...

I have a friend, Tommy Simpson, who is the guitar tech for Michael W. Smith. I've heard him playing a crappy guitar through a Gorilla amp and sound amazing. A great player has hands that sound good... Eric Johnson talks about that a lot. He covers getting all the tone you can out of your guitar with your hands...

Peace,
Mark

lespaul59 · 12-11-2004, 01:04 AM

I agree with Woltrap also. I was in a band a the lead guitarist used one of the Digitech EFX processors that you could down load setting on and he would switch settings for almost every song and I would either use my Peavey Bandit or Marshall 50w half stack('78 JMP) and the most I had to do is cut my gain up or down depending on the song. A friend of mine could get about the same tone from a Matchless Chiefton and a Bad Cat, and I'm talking close enuff where you just think he adjusted his setting not switched amps. Tube amps have a rep of they're hard to work with, high cost for good tube amps and other things that I've read people don't like and I think every one should try one for there self because you adjust the settings just like you do on any amp, good tube amps can be found for less than $500 and I really believe people make up reasons to hate tube amps to just have a reason to hate them. I mean is a tube amp hard to work with from the standpoint that a ss you can grab a setting that suggested in the book and it sound good as to where a tube amp a setting in a book is just a starting point. I don't see how people can really say a SS amp is better than tube. I'm not say that a ss might work for a person better than tube, like some people might not use a Les Paul because it doesn't fit their style but they like them aposed to LP's suck what you need is a Superstar 5000 with the Ultragalactic tremlo lol or what ever guitar you want to put there. I mean My Marshall is my main amp but I'll never get rid of my Peavey Bandit either because I had good tone from it as well.

Woltrap · 12-11-2004, 11:43 PM

Amen bro!!

One thing that's cracking my up right now in the tube amp industry is all of the amp companies jumping on the Class A band wagon. Crate has a $250 Class A amp...it's sounds like crap...or better yet...it sounds like a Crate. Some cheesie, thin distortion...

But in the same vein...I'm SO freakin' tired of $2500+ amps. My dream amp is a Komet...when are made right down the road. Why in the world would I sink $3800 into a head that has no master volume. Granted...it's sound absolutely AMAZING! But $3800? Even a Bad Cat Hotcat or a Black Cat... Used a Hot Cat is $1800-2000. All of these amps, in a live setting, are one trick ponies...but it's the thourghbreds that win the Triple Crowns... And I'm fully aware of that.

I own a Gibson Goldtone 15 watt, Class A, 12", combo. It's the BEST bang for the buck on the Class A market. The guys over at Komet love the way it sound... I asked them "why don't y'all make a $1000 or less Class A amp?" The response? Tube snobbery...from tube guys!! If they don't design it (the circuit that is) it's not worth doing.

I don't get it. Gibson bought Trace Elliott's Velocette design, made a couple "moderate" adjustments, named it "The Goldtone" and voila! 15 watt, Class A yumminess! I bought mine NEW for $620...that's included shipping. Is it a Hot Cat?...no...is it an AC30?...no. It's pretty darn close to an AC15.

Why can't more of these boutique cats take a page from Gibson/Trace Elliott? BTW...that's a HINT for anyone looking for a Class A amp and can't spare your first born. Hit EBay and look for the Trace Elliott Velocette or a Gibson Goldtone. Bang for the back... Anywho...back to the point. Why not make a "mass market" kind of amp that doesn't break the bank? Loose the tube snobbery...

Peace,
Mark

tht00 · 12-12-2004, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woltrap

Amen bro!!

One thing that's cracking my up right now in the tube amp industry is all of the amp companies jumping on the Class A band wagon. Crate has a $250 Class A amp...it's sounds like crap...or better yet...it sounds like a Crate. Some cheesie, thin distortion...

But in the same vein...I'm SO freakin' tired of $2500+ amps. My dream amp is a Komet...when are made right down the road. Why in the world would I sink $3800 into a head that has no master volume. Granted...it's sound absolutely AMAZING! But $3800? Even a Bad Cat Hotcat or a Black Cat... Used a Hot Cat is $1800-2000. All of these amps, in a live setting, are one trick ponies...but it's the thourghbreds that win the Triple Crowns... And I'm fully aware of that.

I own a Gibson Goldtone 15 watt, Class A, 12", combo. It's the BEST bang for the buck on the Class A market. The guys over at Komet love the way it sound... I asked them "why don't y'all make a $1000 or less Class A amp?" The response? Tube snobbery...from tube guys!! If they don't design it (the circuit that is) it's not worth doing.

I don't get it. Gibson bought Trace Elliott's Velocette design, made a couple "moderate" adjustments, named it "The Goldtone" and voila! 15 watt, Class A yumminess! I bought mine NEW for $620...that's included shipping. Is it a Hot Cat?...no...is it an AC30?...no. It's pretty darn close to an AC15.

Why can't more of these boutique cats take a page from Gibson/Trace Elliott? BTW...that's a HINT for anyone looking for a Class A amp and can't spare your first born. Hit EBay and look for the Trace Elliott Velocette or a Gibson Goldtone. Bang for the back... Anywho...back to the point. Why not make a "mass market" kind of amp that doesn't break the bank? Loose the tube snobbery...

Peace,
Mark

usually, the terms of a tube snob or tube snobbery in general are used in that a person only will use a tube amp and hates anything else. solid state and modelling amps are sometime treated almost sinful.

(i've also heard them called tone purists)

you brought up some valid points that i never thought about before as well, such as tube amp companies being snobby about what they produce. and i agree that there should be some more, lower price options for class A tube amps. i've got an old kalamazoo i picked up at a garage sale for around $50-60 as well as the guitar that i got with it. guitar sucked, but the amp (which i thought was junk at the time) is nice. tone is great... not exactly what i like, but sounds good... cleans are too boutique for my taste, although the overdrive is similar to an AC15. many times, the small, class A tube amps are some of the best... which there isn't much of on the market anymore. which partially is due to guitarists who want bigger amps, and i think that most bigger tube amps are class AB. and then there are the newbies who only look at the wattage & price to determine their next amp, which ends up solid state... and then there are modelling amps - some of which are incredible, and some suck... its hard to sell a good class A amp when guitarists are looking for the wrong things in a guitar amp to start with...

i've looked into building my own tube amp, and probably will sometime next year. that might be something you might want to look into if you have the time, interest, and some extra money ($100-200 for the parts). and there are plenty of schematics out there. just an idea...

**thesteve** · 12-12-2004, 06:18 PM

i agree that it's tough to sell a class A amp in the "more wattage is more better" era. a good (new) class A amp can be pretty expensive, especially when the companies that make them tend to be more botique dealers. For example a THD Uni-Valve 15W Class A amp (head) runs $845. these things are supposed to be amazingly versatile (they will accept any type of power tube). but with the current mentality, who's going to spend $845 on a 15W amp when they can spen the same money and get a 50 or 100W SS/full stack deal, or just a 50 or 100W all-tube (class A/B) head. What they don't understand is that the 15W (A/B) amp is only slightly less than half of the overall volume of a 100W (A/B) amp. it also won't have the same headroom, but alot of these kids who are getting these 100W behemoths don't need that much volume anyway. from what i understand, class A actually sounds louder than an equally powered class a/b amplifier.

tht00 · 12-12-2004, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesteve

i agree that it's tough to sell a class A amp in the "more wattage is more better" era. a good (new) class A amp can be pretty expensive, especially when the companies that make them tend to be more botique dealers. For example a THD Uni-Valve 15W Class A amp (head) runs $845. these things are supposed to be amazingly versatile (they will accept any type of power tube). but with the current mentality, who's going to spend $845 on a 15W amp when they can spen the same money and get a 50 or 100W SS/full stack deal, or just a 50 or 100W all-tube (class A/B) head. What they don't understand is that the 15W (A/B) amp is only slightly less than half of the overall volume of a 100W (A/B) amp. it also won't have the same headroom, but alot of these kids who are getting these 100W behemoths don't need that much volume anyway. from what i understand, class A actually sounds louder than an equally powered class a/b amplifier.

i think the way that it works is this -
class A will sound loudest watt for watt and there is no 'push pull' amplification. the tubes amplify the signal as is... nothing fancy.

class AB uses the push-pull technique and while one tube amplifies one part of the signal, another tube is paired with it to amplify the other part of the signal... this results in more wattage, more potential power, but it also diminishes some of the tone as a compromise.

so, while a 5watt class A would be louder than a 5watt class AB, there would be a significant difference in components between the 2, as class AB is more efficient. a 5watt class A would probably have similar number of parts to a 30watt class AB amp, because of the extra efficiency. (i saw a table somewhere... class AB can harness a lot more power from the same tubes). so... part for part, class AB is louder... watt for watt, class A is prolly louder (for arguement's sake).

and yeah... its kinda sad whats happened to the guitar amp industry... 90% of amps are SS, and so many people fall into the trap of buying them thinking that they are great because 1) the salesperson said so, or 2) because musician's friend said so, or 3) iT has a l0t off waTts. sure, there are other reasons... and not all SS amps are inherently evil... but they are missing out on an integral guitar element... tone...

**thesteve** · 12-13-2004, 02:29 AM

well not all ss amps are lacking in tone...they're just lacking in tube tone...but that's been discussed before and anyone who reads the amp forums knows i'm a big supporter of "the right amp for the right usage".

as far as your class A vs. AB descriptions, they sounded pretty dead on.

lespaul59 · 12-13-2004, 03:15 AM

The tube snob in me comes out when it comes to buying any amp after the Marshall I own now. I will never buy any thing but tube again. And I'll say it I want a JCM 800 100w amp, but a good low watt Class A tube amp is just as good as a 100w because I'm really a tone freak so when it comes to whats best for my tone compaired to more power, tone wins out any day of the week.

tht00 · 12-13-2004, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thesteve

well not all ss amps are lacking in tone...they're just lacking in tube tone...but that's been discussed before and anyone who reads the amp forums knows i'm a big supporter of "the right amp for the right usage".

of coarse- i love vox's valvetronix modelling line (mostly because its so close to the real thing, i can't really tell the difference in feal or sound

) i usually throw the term SS around for all of the transistor only, no modelling, circuits. and again, while these can have great tones, they usually don't - especially the low end, high wattage amps that a lot of beginners get - just because it looks cool and has a lot of watts. are there some good SS amps out there? sure, there probably are... but good luck hunting them down.

modelling amps are getting much better, which opens up a lot of options for guitarists. these can still be somewhat hard to find good ones.

that leaves tube amps as the pretty much the only sure-fire way of getting something good. i know... i know... there's bad ones out there, but it'll be a lot harder getting a bad tube amp than a good SS amp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lespaul59

The tube snob in me comes out when it comes to buying any amp after the Marshall I own now. I will never buy any thing but tube again. And I'll say it I want a JCM 800 100w amp, but a good low watt Class A tube amp is just as good as a 100w because I'm really a tone freak so when it comes to whats best for my tone compaired to more power, tone wins out any day of the week.

tone is always more important than power... but an AB 100w amp and an A 5w amp are going to have 2 different sounds. one won't necisarilly be better than the other, other than what you prefer. larger amps, like a marshall, always tend excel at higher gains and distortion. smaller amps, like a kalamazoo

or an AC15 excel in clean and overdrive territory. its all about preference, and what you want in an amp. and whether its tube, modelling, or somehow SS - if you can match the sound your after, then who cares?

PacerX · 01-31-2005, 02:58 PM

Played a gig over the weekend.

Line 6 AX2:
Yessir, 32 user banks, each with 4 patches... that's a whole lotta (128) separate tones available.

I use every one of them.

For instance, for "Ocean Floor" by Audio Adrenalin:

Bank: 2
Patch A = Intro/Chorus rhythm (Fender Tweed, little bit of dirt, little bit of spring reverb)
Patch B = Verse rhythm (Fender Blackface, less dirt, less volume, touch of chorus, little bit of spring reverb)
Patch C = Bridge (Fender Bassman, clean, tremolo, plate reverb)
Patch D = Solo/Fills (Mesa Dual Rectifier, TIGHT delay, touch 'o plate reverb)

1 song, 4 distinct tones out of 1 amp.

Identical to a tube amp?

Honestly, I couldn't care less, as no human being on the planet could tell the difference to save their lives on tape or at a gig.

Flex-a-bility is the name of the game. And the only thing I take issue with is the idea from some folks that a tube amp is the ONLY amp that can get a great sound. I have a picture of SRV laying around somewhere in the house showing his backline of amps... don't know the date, but I do know this - every single one of them was a solid-state Fender. Now, he probably changed amps around like some folks change shirts, but if SRV is playing a 100% Fender solid state backline, I'm figuring he liked the tone he was getting out of it, or he wouldn't be playing through them.

Will be welcoming a brand new Line 6 Vetta II to my humble home in the next week or so, and I'm jazzed. It has the one thing the AX2 and Vetta were missing - an effects loop.

Now I can use my intelligent harmonizer again!!!!

PS - Go read up on the "Amp Farm" plug-in for ProTools sometime if you'd like to know how most bands are recording in the studio nowadays. Not only are many of them not using tube amps... a WHOLE LOTTA them aren't using amplifiers at all!

ApparentlyNothing · 01-31-2005, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PacerX

Played a gig over the weekend.

Line 6 AX2:
Yessir, 32 user banks, each with 4 patches... that's a whole lotta (128) separate tones available.

I use every one of them.

For instance, for "Ocean Floor" by Audio Adrenalin:

Bank: 2
Patch A = Intro/Chorus rhythm (Fender Tweed, little bit of dirt, little bit of spring reverb)
Patch B = Verse rhythm (Fender Blackface, less dirt, less volume, touch of chorus, little bit of spring reverb)
Patch C = Bridge (Fender Bassman, clean, tremolo, plate reverb)
Patch D = Solo/Fills (Mesa Dual Rectifier, TIGHT delay, touch 'o plate reverb)

1 song, 4 distinct tones out of 1 amp.

Identical to a tube amp?

Honestly, I couldn't care less, as no human being on the planet could tell the difference to save their lives on tape or at a gig.

Flex-a-bility is the name of the game. And the only thing I take issue with is the idea from some folks that a tube amp is the ONLY amp that can get a great sound. I have a picture of SRV laying around somewhere in the house showing his backline of amps... don't know the date, but I do know this - every single one of them was a solid-state Fender. Now, he probably changed amps around like some folks change shirts, but if SRV is playing a 100% Fender solid state backline, I'm figuring he liked the tone he was getting out of it, or he wouldn't be playing through them.

Will be welcoming a brand new Line 6 Vetta II to my humble home in the next week or so, and I'm jazzed. It has the one thing the AX2 and Vetta were missing - an effects loop.

Now I can use my intelligent harmonizer again!!!!

PS - Go read up on the "Amp Farm" plug-in for ProTools sometime if you'd like to know how most bands are recording in the studio nowadays. Not only are many of them not using tube amps... a WHOLE LOTTA them aren't using amplifiers at all!

No offense at all, really, but I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

PacerX · 01-31-2005, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApparentlyNothing

No offense at all, really, but I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.

And you're entitled to that opinion, no matter how wrong it is!

Pssst... Amp Farm is everywhere, and you'll never know the difference...

http://www.digidesign.com/products/d...roduct_id=1001

Can't forget Amplitube...

http://www.amplitube.com/Main.html?prod_AT

That's right kiddies, it might not be a tube amp, it might not be a solid state amp... heck... it might not be an amp at all!