Women Elders in the church?

FreakShiny · 05-07-2004, 08:26 AM

Ok... this may stir some heat about the whole "Women can be pastors, too," thing that some people believe but please try to stay on topic.

I know that in the Bible, God said that a woman cannot hold authority over a man in a church (hence why there should be no female pastors). What about church elders? Is it Biblical to allow a woman to be a part of a church's elder board? Elders do not really hold authority in and of themselves but rather as a group... so to me it makes sense to allow female elders but not pastors.

What does everyone else think?

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 05-07-2004, 08:31 AM

elders, no

but I am inclined to think women deacons in the biblical sense is a good idea as they are servers, not authorities, and can provide help to women on levels that men deacons can not or should not.

Travis · 05-07-2004, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Fan

I know that in the Bible, God said that a woman cannot hold authority over a man in a church (hence why there should be no female pastors). What about church elders? Is it Biblical to allow a woman to be a part of a church's elder board? Elders do not really hold authority in and of themselves but rather as a group... so to me it makes sense to allow female elders but not pastors.

That's ridiculous. Groups are merely collections of individuals. If an individual woman cannot have authority over a man then neither should she be part of a group that has authority over men. A woman elder would have authority over men, even if it was merely as part of a group with authority, since being a part of such a group would necessarily confer to the individuals within it some level of authority and there would be men under that authority. Therefore such an arrangement would be in clear violation of biblical teaching.

FreakShiny · 05-07-2004, 10:35 AM

How about this idea... in our church, the Women's Ministry's decisions are made entirely by the all-male elder board. Shouldn't every major ministry have representation in the elder board? Not so that a woman would have authority over the church but so that she can assist in making decisions for the church body as a whole... she would not have the final say, and as such would not have any full authority over any men in the church.

I feel the same as you guys do but am searching for more of a why is this wrong type of thing. The Biblical description of this position is not as clear as it is for pastors and such.

Can anyone cite some scriptures strengthening this position (that women should not be on the elder board)?

Travis · 05-07-2004, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Fan

How about this idea... in our church, the Women's Ministry's decisions are made entirely by the all-male elder board. Shouldn't every major ministry have representation in the elder board? Not so that a woman would have authority over the church but so that she can assist in making decisions for the church body as a whole... she would not have the final say, and as such would not have any full authority over any men in the church.

Women can be asked to contribute in making decisions for the Women's Ministry without being elders.

**+Donny** · 05-07-2004, 10:45 AM

Read this:

http://www.hornes.org/theologia/cont...nd_liturgy.htm

Its long, but very good.

FreakShiny · 05-07-2004, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by +Donny

Read this:

http://www.hornes.org/theologia/cont...nd_liturgy.htm

Its long, but very good.

I read pieces of it... will read the whole thing when I get home. Looks very good!

Rach · 05-07-2004, 11:22 AM

In I Timothy 3 it speaks of Overseers & Deacons. Could/would overseer = elder in this case?

Mike Graham · 05-07-2004, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Fan

I know that in the Bible, God said that a woman cannot hold authority over a man in a church (hence why there should be no female pastors).

Elder is a position of authority. It speaks of not teaching or having authority over a man. (I assume we are refering to 1 Timothy 2:12.) That is to say, not being a pastor or a ruling elder, which IS a position of authority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Fan

Elders do not really hold authority in and of themselves but rather as a group...

Yet they hold authority. I fail to see why the sharedness it important. It seems to be like arguing that women can be pastors since all true teaching and authority comes from God, so she would not do/have either.

Bryan · 05-07-2004, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rach

In I Timothy 3 it speaks of Overseers & Deacons. Could/would overseer = elder in this case?

yes, an overseer is the same thing as an elder.

Lightknight · 05-07-2004, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis

That's ridiculous. Groups are merely collections of individuals. If an individual woman cannot have authority over a man then neither should she be part of a group that has authority over men. A woman elder would have authority over men, even if it was merely as part of a group with authority, since being a part of such a group would necessarily confer to the individuals within it some level of authority and there would be men under that authority. Therefore such an arrangement would be in clear violation of biblical teaching.

I think I have to go with Travis on this one. My arguement on the def of "gune" was always lame. I can't see any way around it. Then again, it depends on what you mean by elders. The Bible mentions female elders.

1Ti 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat [him] as a father; [and] the younger men as brethren;
1Ti 5:2 The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

is that refering to them as just being older or is it also their church position?

Mike Graham · 05-07-2004, 01:39 PM

I believe 1 Tim 5 refers to someone who is of greater age. NASB, NKJV, ESV, and RSV render it as "older man" in 5:1 and since it refers to the younger men and women to contrast, it really seems to simply refer to age.

Lightknight · 05-07-2004, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Graham

I believe 1 Tim 5 refers to someone who is of greater age. NASB, NKJV, ESV, and RSV render it as "older man" in 5:1 and since it refers to the younger men and women to contrast, it really seems to simply refer to age.

Yeah, that makes more since. I just wanted to post it to be sure.

Chrysostom · 05-07-2004, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Fan

Ok... this may stir some heat about the whole "Women can be pastors, too," thing that some people believe but please try to stay on topic.

I know that in the Bible, God said that a woman cannot hold authority over a man in a church (hence why there should be no female pastors). What about church elders? Is it Biblical to allow a woman to be a part of a church's elder board? Elders do not really hold authority in and of themselves but rather as a group... so to me it makes sense to allow female elders but not pastors.

What does everyone else think?

The command in 1 Tim 2:12 directly precedes a discussion on eldership (Ch. 3). As the primary unit of church leadership, elders are obviously included in the prohibition mentioned in 2:12.

Quote:

Originally Posted by +Donny

Read this:

http://www.hornes.org/theologia/cont...nd_liturgy.htm

Its long, but very good.

It was also written for my church.

Sadly, the whole article no longer appears. I think something is wrong with their website.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rach

In I Timothy 3 it speaks of Overseers & Deacons. Could/would overseer = elder in this case?

The word translated 'overseer' is 'episkopos.' You can see the obvious correlation to 'Episcopal.' The word for 'elder' is 'presbuteros.' You can see the obvious correlation to 'Presbyterian.' The two refer to the same office; how exactly we name the office (bishop, elder) is not important. The names 'overseer' and 'elder' are used interchangeably by Paul. In Titus 1, when discussing the appointing of elders, he gives the qualifications for an 'overseer.' In Acts 20, when speaking to the elders, he refers to them as 'overseers.' Thus, he sees the two ('elder' and 'overseer') as referring to the same office.

Titus 1:5-7
5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you—
6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.
7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,

Acts 20:17-28
17 Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the church to come to him.
18 And when they came to him, he said to them:
"You yourselves know how I lived among you the whole time from the first day that I set foot in Asia,
19 serving the Lord with all humility and with tears and with trials that happened to me through the plots of the Jews;
20 how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house,
21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
22 And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, constrained by the Spirit, not knowing what will happen to me there,
23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me.
24 But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
25 And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again.
26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you,
27 for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.
28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

Rach · 05-07-2004, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mustbenothing

The word translated 'overseer' is 'episkopos.' You can see the obvious correlation to 'Episcopal.' The word for 'elder' is 'presbuteros.' You can see the obvious correlation to 'Presbyterian.' The two refer to the same office; how exactly we name the office (bishop, elder) is not important. The names 'overseer' and 'elder' are used interchangeably by Paul. In Titus 1, when discussing the appointing of elders, he gives the qualifications for an 'overseer.' In Acts 20, when speaking to the elders, he refers to them as 'overseers.' Thus, he sees the two ('elder' and 'overseer') as referring to the same office.

Titus 1:5-7
5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you—
6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination.
7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,

Acts 20:17-28
17 Now from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called the elders of the church to come to him.
18 And when they came to him, he said to them:
"You yourselves know how I lived among you the whole time from the first day that I set foot in Asia,
19 serving the Lord with all humility and with tears and with trials that happened to me through the plots of the Jews;
20 how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house,
21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
22 And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, constrained by the Spirit, not knowing what will happen to me there,
23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me.
24 But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
25 And now, behold, I know that none of you among whom I have gone about proclaiming the kingdom will see my face again.
26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you,
27 for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.
28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

Alright so since in 1 Tim. 3 it refers to elders/overseers as "a husband of one wife", "He must manage his own household well" as well as refering to them as "he" and so forth, wouldn't that indicate that any postion of elder/overseer is to be held by a man only?