[Jared]

Do Christians have the right to legislate for moral change?

Where do we get the idea that it is our responsibility or that it is even possible?

What's the deal with the Christian agenda to elect only Christian leaders? Would that accomplish anything?

WHY?!

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Jared

Do Christians have the right to legislate for moral change?

yes, we do, we have the right to propose and pass any legislation we choose. It must agree with the constitution, but if it doesn't we can change it. That's the great thing about America, ulitmately, the majority rules.

Where do we get the idea that it is our responsibility or that it is even possible?

it is our responsibility because government is God's instrument of justice against evil. And because our government is ruled "for the people, by the people, and of the people" it is our responisibility to make sure our government is doing the right thing.

What's the deal with the Christian agenda to elect only Christian leaders? Would that accomplish anything?

why would i want to elect someone that would make legal something I think should be legal? And yes it would accopmlish something. If it was nothing but Christians in office, things would be a lot different in the country.

[Jared]

it is our responsibility because government is God's instrument of justice against evil.

Sloooooooow down. Prove to me that a republic is God's chosen incarnation of government and the mechanism by which He executes justice.

And because our government is ruled "for the people, by the people, and of the people" it is our responisibility to make sure our government is doing the right thing.

why would i want to elect someone that would make legal something I think should be legal? And yes it would accopmlish something. If it was nothing but Christians in office, things would be a lot different in the country.

Ah. To be more specific, I question whether legislation is the proper way to go about making Biblical values culturally relevant. I saw Jesus commanding us to pray for our rulers. I saw Jesus and His disciples meeting with the political elite (Joseph of Arimathea, Nicodemus, etc.).

I do believe God wants us to influence society and government, but I don't believe it is possible to turn the tides of a deteriorating culture by passing laws and electing people like Pat Robertson.

[JerryLove]

Sloooooooow down. Prove to me that a republic is God's chosen incarnation of government and the mechanism by which He executes justice.

Romans 13... of course, that passage also proves that communism, facism, feudalisim, and everything else are too.

[Benny Hicks]

Originally Posted by Bryan

That's the great thing about America, ulitmately, the majority rules.

If this were true, I would still argue that this would only be great if you are the majority. However, does the majority truly rule? Can the majority truly oppress the minority?

Yeah, I'm nitpicking, but this is something I've thought about lately and it is clear that America is truly not a democracy.

Originally Posted by JerryLove

Romans 13... of course, that passage also proves that communism, facism, feudalisim, and everything else are too.

Paul very well recognizes that the authorities can abandon entirely the distinciton to be maintained by them between good and evil and place themselves at the service of evil (cf. 1 Cor. 2:7-8), but this does not prevent him from continuing to elucidate God's purpose with governement, nor from giving expression to his faith that God upholds his purpose, continues to establish justice on earth through government, and thus continues to press it into the service of the well-being of the world.

Ben

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Benny Hicks

If this were true, I would still argue that this would only be great if you are the majority. However, does the majority truly rule? Can the majority truly oppress the minority?

Yeah, I'm nitpicking, but this is something I've thought about lately and it is clear that America is truly not a democracy.

you are right, America is not a democracy, it never was. America is a representative republic. If America were truly a Democracy then the people would vote on everything, from who ought to be president and the budget for the custodial department in the County Courthouse.

But America is ultimately ruled by the majority, since the public have the last say in the constitution and its ammendments (remember that the citizens have to ratify any ammendments).

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Jared

Sloooooooow down. Prove to me that a republic is God's chosen incarnation of government and the mechanism by which He executes justice.

I never said a republic is God's chosen incarnation of government.

Ah. To be more specific, I question whether legislation is the proper way to go about making Biblical values culturally relevant. I saw Jesus commanding us to pray for our rulers. I saw Jesus and His disciples meeting with the political elite (Joseph of Arimathea, Nicodemus, etc.).

How else do you suppose we make Biblical values culturally relevant. ANd why wouldn't you want to? I mean if it is a sin to do something, why would you want that to be legal?

I do believe God wants us to influence society and government, but I don't believe it is possible to turn the tides of a deteriorating culture by passing laws and electing people like Pat Robertson.

I'm not trying to turn the tides of a deterioating culture by passing laws. I just want less people to commit sins, like abortion and adultry.

[Jay Tea]

Originally Posted by Jared

I do believe God wants us to influence society and government, but I don't believe it is possible to turn the tides of a deteriorating culture by passing laws and electing people like Pat Robertson.

Well, Pat Robertson might be a bit of a different story all together.

Laws that agree with God's law are good, and we should promote them, but I wouldn't say they're the only thing to press for. Ultimately, the law will, for the most part, reflect the attitudes of society, not shape them. I think the arts and media have a far greater ability to shape what people think on a large scale, and on a small scale, it seems that personal evangelism is really God's "Plan A" for bringing people into his kingdom. Pressing for moral laws without getting people to believe in them is ultimately going to fail, or, at best, leave a hollow shell of false morality. Which, incidentally, I feel like we've been living under for some time, and it's finally starting to crack. Until the Super Bowl...

["BrooksB"]

Maybe I'm missing something, but Romans 13 appears (to me) to say very little about human governmental authority, especially as far as moral authority goes. Could someone please quote directly which part of this chapter that you are referring to?


I don't know how many of yall believe in free will, but the whole idea of using coercion to enforce moral actions is pretty much opposing god's will. Obviously, if god gave us free will and allowed us to sin, why should humans assume the role of punishing sin? Do we think we should exert more power over other humans than god does? Because god could stop sin himself, it would be to undermine god's own will to attempt to forcefully prevent sin.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by Jay Tea

Well, Pat Robertson might be a bit of a different story all together.

Laws that agree with God's law are good, and we should promote them, but I wouldn't say they're the only thing to press for. Ultimately, the law will, for the most part, reflect the attitudes of society, not shape them. I think the arts and media have a far greater ability to shape what people think on a large scale, and on a small scale, it seems that personal evangelism is really God's "Plan A" for bringing people into his kingdom. Pressing for moral laws without getting people to believe in them is ultimately going to fail, or, at best, leave a hollow shell of false morality. Which, incidentally, I feel like we've been living under for some time, and it's finally starting to crack. Until the Super Bowl...

This is exactly what I am getting at. It is not the government's job to bully citizens into following God's moral code. It is the government's job to ensure the welfare and safety of its citizens.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Jared

This is exactly what I am getting at. It is not the government's job to bully citizens into following God's moral code. It is the government's job to ensure the welfare and safety of its citizens.

God's law is what is best for us. And making God's law US Law we are looking out for the welfare and safety of its citizens.

[+Donny]

This is exactly what I am getting at. It is not the government's job to bully citizens into following God's moral code. It is the government's job to ensure the welfare and safety of its citizens.

Of course. I don't think you will ever find a single Christian Reconstructionist (I don't know about other movements) that follows the teachings of North, Rushdoony, Bahnsen, or anyone of that group, that will teach otherwise. As North stresses in practically every book he wrote, the Reconstruction is bottom-up, not top-down. We don't impose morals, we preach them.

[Jared]

Originally Posted by Bryan

God's law is what is best for us. And making God's law US Law we are looking out for the welfare and safety of its citizens.

First of all, is this not undermining the entire premise of the US Constitution? Forcing Christianity upon every citizen?

Subsequently, how is this Biblical?

Once our government is cleansed of all pagan principles, should we therefore impose our government on the rest of the world? Where does it stop?
It is not the State's duty to uphold God's law. It isn't even feasible.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Jared

First of all, is this not undermining the entire premise of the US Constitution? Forcing Christianity upon every citizen?

Subsequently, how is this Biblical?

Once our government is cleansed of all pagan principles, should we therefore impose our government on the rest of the world? Where does it stop?
It is not the State's duty to uphold God's law. It isn't even feasible.

it's not forcing Christianity upon every citizen, people can still believe what they want to believe. But it will be illegal to sin.

it is biblical because government is God's instrument of wrath on earth. And what would God have wrath against? Why sin of course. So if government is going to do its job as God as defined it, it should execute wrath on those who sin. Thus sin should be illegal and government should punish those who sin (when it can be proved).

[Jared]

You entire position is quite laughable, Bryan.

I'll respond thoroughly later. Gotta run now.