[BereanatHeart]

I am glad to debate on this subject, and I would like to thank Sean, for making me do all of this study, it has been profitable to me, and I hope it will be profitable to any who read this. The purpose of this debate is not for one of us to beat the other, but rather for God’s word to refute false doctrine.

In the thread titled “Do you know what Calvinism and Arminianism are?” Sean and myself got into a discussion on Total depravity and like issues. I would like to reply to some of his arguments and present some of my own.

Originally Posted by Sean

Why are there people who are magically better than others who magically overcome being dead in their sins and their inability to seek God and their inability to do good? How are there people who have met th conditions to be elected if they're dead in sin, do no good, and don't seek God? THEY CAN'T. It non-sense to claim somone dead can seek God.

(Me) Your right, a dead man cannot come unto God unless God draws him Joh 6:44, however, we weren’t debating whether one can be saved on his own, we’re debating if he is required to do anything once God’s word reaches him

Now to reply to the verses you posted.

Ephes. 2:1 (ESV)
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Ephes. 2:5 (ESV)
even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—(Me) Indeed, we are/were dead in trespasses and sins. Also, I agree 100% that we have been quickened, (made alive,) by Christ. That’s what these verses teach. These verses in no way support your position. They state that we are dead, and that we are made alive by Christ. They teach nothing more, and nothing less.

The question is “How has He quickened us, (made us alive?)” Well, lets see what the Bible has to say. (My opponent seems to think my postion lacks support from the scriptures, well, we will see,) Psalms 119:50, “This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.” Did you hear that? “Thy word hath quickened me.” That’s what the Bible says, also, John 5:25, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” We are quickened by God’s word, we are made alive by God’s word. That is how the dead are made alive.

Of course then he goes around saying “How do some people magically obey? If some one hears God’s word why aren’t they automatically saved?” First of all it has nothing to do with magic. Let’s see if the Bible can answer his question. The parable of the sower: "When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.” Some do not obey because they do not understand, and the Devil takes away that which was taught. It is our duty to help them understand. “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?” Rom 10:14.


“ But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.” Some do not obey because the do not endure the trails and tribulation that the devil attacks us with. But some can endure, and if they do they will receive a crown of righteousness. Rev 2:10.

“He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. “Some allow the cares of this world to distact them from following the truth. We must forsake all and follow Christ. Mt 19:29 “And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.”

“But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”We must receive God’s word, we must study it so we can understand it, and we must obey it.


Ephes. 2:8-9 (ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Yes, saved by grace I do not deny, but His grace saves us through faith, which comes from His word. Rom 10:17 “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”


Romans 3:9-12 (ESV)
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, [10] as it is written:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
[11] no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
[12] All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."

If we were debating that Jews are better than gentiles I could see why he would post the verses, but we’re not. These verses are referring to the fact that Jews and Gentiles are saved by Faith, and not by the law.

Also, it says, “All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;” Not that they were born that way. Hmm… better be careful you just might have a case of apostasy on your hands.
.
If this verse means what you say it does than an unsaved man cannot do any good. That is not so! Many sinners have done some good things. Do you deny this?

Now that I have replied to Sean’s arguments, I would like to ask him a few questions.

If the lost can do nothing to be saved, and the saved can do nothing to be lost, please tell how God judges people according to their works?

Since you believe (I assume) that men are totally depraved when they are born, which way do they go when they go astray?

Through who is total depravity passed, the mother or the father?



In closing,

“And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” Luke 11:9,10.

Thank you those who are reading this, thank you Sean, my worthy opponent.

In Christ,
Pasquale

[Sean]

I never agreed to debate you. The fact that you've continued with the arrogant attitude doesn't encourage me to either. If you want to have this debate we're going to do it an civilized fashion without the mudslinging. If you want to continue saying crap like "I'm here to use God's word to fight off herecy" fine. I don't mind. I just won't have any part in it.

[BereanatHeart]

I said that the purpose of this debate is to let God's word refute false doctrine. Is that not what you want it to do?

Also, I didn't want to debate you in the first place, but thankfully you kept pressing me to reply and so I did. Now, either you can support your doctrine, or you can simply not post and I will definetly not hold it against you, nor will I hold it against your doctrine. After all, debating truely isn't for everyone. (Possilbly including me) In fact this will be my first. So I know how you feel.

Also, I apologize for the behaviour I displayed earlier, it was not fitting of a Christian. I have a bad habit of acting arrogant and than realizing what a fool I am.(btw. You can't you my pride as a proof for Totall Hereditary Depravity. O.K.)
I will try my best to keep my foolish pride from entering this debate. Please bear with me.

In Christ,
Pasquale

[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by Sean

I never agreed to debate you.

All:


For future reference: debates must be agreed upon beforehand to start one in this forum.

[BereanatHeart]

Originally Posted by Mike Graham

All:


For future reference: debates must be agreed upon beforehand to start one in this forum.

I'll remember that. Although, Sean has recently agreed to the debate so please don't close this or anything.