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Unread 02-19-2004, 11:47 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
If by "supposed to have" you mean designed into, no. I do mean that the noise is part of the vibe. There are no noiseless pickups on the market today that have the same sonic signature as a vintage strat pickup....not the Fender Vintage Noiseless, not the Kinman, the Lawrence, the EMG...nothing. The noise is part of the tone.
Ever been to Johnny A's Guitar Nuts?

Chesh

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Unread 02-20-2004, 12:06 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Ever been to Johnny A's Guitar Nuts?

Chesh
Yep. I am not talking about shielding. I am talking about pickup design.
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Unread 02-20-2004, 12:22 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
Yep. I am not talking about shielding. I am talking about pickup design.
Well, 60 Cycle Hum is 60 Cycle Hum. That's a function of shielding, if you want to eliminate it.

Chesh
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Unread 02-20-2004, 08:48 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
Oh, and I am a jerk by hobby only....just ask tonyh.
I believe the proper term is Evil
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Unread 02-20-2004, 09:57 AM   #65
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I guess Major Tom has said it all...
Quote:
Wow, lively discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Tom
I have never played a Fender Strat without a trem, but a friend of mine told me once that he tried one and that it "sounded a lot like a telecaster". I guess that sort of reinforced my theory...
I have. My bottom-of-the-line Squier is a hardtail. It does sound a lot like a Tele. An incredibly cheap Tele, but tele-like nonetheless.

Quote:
Ever since then as I have listened to tele tones, it could be my imagination, but I recognize a similarity between the tele and Les Paul. Certainly not in harmonic content in their unadulterated tone, but more in the envelope of their tone - the attack/bite, sustain, etc.
I also notice that when I use my LP with both pickups on, it's a sorta Telecaster-like tone that I get. Well, at least that's how I describe it.

Quote:
My answer - own at least one of everything, not necessarily by the original mfr, but a decent one of each type. Les Paul, Les Paul Jr., Strat, tele, Ric, PRS, Danelectro, ES335, etc, etc. They're all good in their own way when in the right hands, no?
As soon as I can spit up the cash.

Quote:
I would guess the reason that the Tele only had a metal cover on the neck pickup is because L.F designed it with that metal "ashtray" bridge cover, that covered (and shielded) the entire bridge/pickup assembly. That big chrome cover that nobody liked, pulled off and actually did use for an ashtray (hence the name), and then disappeared off teles in the 60's (?), except for reissue models... Probably was intended for aesthetics...he certainly didn't carry that over to his new, improved, ultimate design, the Stratocaster.
I'm sure that the first Strats had those ashtray covers. Those never covered the bridge pickup though, so they had no influence on tone and were ultimately tossed.

Quote:
Strats and Teles as well as a lot of other guitars do leave a lot to be desired in the way of shielding to be sure... In expensive instruments aimed at the "professional" market, it just wouldn't add that much cost - it should be in there, period.
Les Pauls have humbuckers, but you can still tell when you're near the TV or a comuter monitor. That "buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz" is not exclusive to single coils. Much, much more noticible, but still there on LP's, PRS's, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
The thing that kills musicians is the grounding of the pickups to the strings. EMG does not do this. Obviously a wireless disconnects you from ground but this has nothing to do with substandard electronics. Fender uses the design because of the tone it produces. If you cancel hum you cancel tone...but that is another story....we are talking about the mechanical object of the guitar here.
If I had two Strats on me, one completely shielded, and one stock, and played them both, you would be able to tell the difference in tone, other then one is buzzing? I don't think so, and in a high noise environment, I'd take the shielded Strat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chesh
Ironically, no, they are not interchangible. Think about that, the two landmark guitars which defined modularity in guitar design don't have interchangible necks.
Doesn't surprise me. They are different guitars...

Quote:
If by "supposed to have" you mean designed into, no. I do mean that the noise is part of the vibe. There are no noiseless pickups on the market today that have the same sonic signature as a vintage strat pickup....not the Fender Vintage Noiseless, not the Kinman, the Lawrence, the EMG...nothing. The noise is part of the tone.
And you can shield it to eliminate the buzz, but not sacrifice tone. Shielding is not a direct modification of the pickup's design, unless you are talking the pickup itself being noiseless, but it is an elimination of the noise.
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Unread 02-20-2004, 11:15 AM   #66
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from the guitarnuts website:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarNuts
These instructions apply primarily to guitars with regular magnetic pickups. Doing the shielding won't cause any problems with newer "noiseless" pickups like Lace sensors, but neither will you see much reduction in hum (which should be almost nonexistant anyway). You may, however, notice a significant reduction in buzz from flourescent lights and such. Often, this noise is picked up in the controls rather than the pickups. That is why you will sometimes hear this noise even with humbuckers or with a Strat in the 2 and 4 positions.

No shielding is 100% effective if you're using single-coil pickups. Most people, however, find that following these instructions results in a significant improvement.
Note that they are differentiating between hum (60 cycle) and buzz (much higher). They also never claim to ELIMINATE noise, just reduce it.
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Unread 02-20-2004, 11:16 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyh
I believe the proper term is Evil
Nah...I was hired to be EVIL. That is a profession. My hobby is jerk.
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Unread 02-20-2004, 11:34 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyh
I believe the proper term is Evil
That works for me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
They also never claim to ELIMINATE noise, just reduce it.
Well, yeah, but the idea is to significantly reduce it. Remember?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarNuts
No shielding is 100% effective if you're using single-coil pickups. Most people, however, find that following these instructions results in a significant improvement.
Also, when you say they are making a distinction between hum and buzz, are you drawing that from that quote?

Chesh
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Last edited by CheshireCat; 02-20-2004 at 11:51 AM.
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Unread 02-20-2004, 12:35 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Well, 60 Cycle Hum is 60 Cycle Hum. That's a function of shielding, if you want to eliminate it.

Chesh
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Well, yeah, but the idea is to significantly reduce it. Remember?

Chesh
Pick one.
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Unread 02-20-2004, 12:44 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
Pick one.
It's a matter of degree. The ultimate purpose is to eliminate the problem, not the radiophonic atmospheric conditions surrounding the guitar that create it. If you significanly reduce it past the point where it is a problem, then you've eliminated the problem.

For instance, EMG's ring in (or, rather, don't, as the case may be) at about -90db of noiselessness (or whatever the term for that is). That's pretty darn quiet. Most people don't complain about that kind of quiet performance.

Chesh
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Last edited by CheshireCat; 02-20-2004 at 12:55 PM.
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Unread 02-20-2004, 01:27 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Also, when you say they are making a distinction between hum and buzz, are you drawing that from that quote?

Chesh
Well, yeah. They talk about hum and hum cancelling pickups and then they refer to BUZZ from flourescent lights.

They restate it at the end of the page:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarNuts
A few pickups come already shielded with copper foil. That is the most effective shielding and these instructions, while not doing any harm, will make less difference in hum with such pickups. It should be noted though that even some humbucker equipped guitars will buzz around flourescent lights and such – thorough shielding and grounding as described here does help significantly in those cases even when there is little or no noise coming from the pickups themselves.
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Unread 02-20-2004, 01:50 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
Well, yeah. They talk about hum and hum cancelling pickups and then they refer to BUZZ from flourescent lights.

They restate it at the end of the page:
Right, so, either way, it's all good, and as long as the problem is eliminated, no worries. Problem solved.

I mean, we can nit-pick all we want, but if we completely eliminate the problem as we experience it, well, that's the ultimate goal.

As I upgrade my Utah, I'm using a lot of stuff that probably doesn't need this as much as a messy, hum-sucking Strat or other such guitar, but, hey, for $20, why not?

Chesh
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Unread 02-21-2004, 12:15 AM   #73
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BTW, for what it's worth . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Atchley of Guitar Nuts
Bottom line is that hum is smooth and you can, for all practical purposes, eliminate it by using humbucking pickups or by using very well shielded single coils. However, if a significant part of an unshielded single coil pickup is exposed outside of the body cavity shielding you will indeed still have some hum.

NO GUITAR IS *SUPPOSED* TO HAVE HUM! Sometimes, depending on how the guitar is wired, it is not always possible or practical to eliminate the hum entirely but HUM IS NEVER DESIRABLE -- IT IS NOT "PART OF THE SOUND" -- and more often than not the presence of noticeable hum in a guitar reflects shoddy construction and design.

60hz hum has a very long wavelength and therefore is picked up mostly in long wire runs (such as the many feet of wire wound on a pickup coil).

Buzz, on the other hand, sometimes may be "based" on 60hz but it has a large sharp-edged or "square wave" component that contains many, many harmonics of the fundamental frequency. These harmonics are much higher frequency and therefore can be picked up easily in much shorter wire runs and in other high-impedance parts of the circuit such as pots and so on. That is why humbucker equipped guitars that ordinarily seem dead quite may buzz quite noticeably if you get them around flourescent lights, computer monitors, motors and motor controllers, and so on.
Food for thought.

Chesh
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Unread 02-21-2004, 11:22 PM   #74
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My local shop has a MIM Strat for $300 I haven't had a chance to play it yet but as far as I can tell it's in perfect shape besides the strings. The neck looks great, no blems on the guitar it really looks like they just stuck a floor(demo) model in the used gear section. And I was looking at a 50's Strat MIM model and noticed that the truss rod was covered up, do you have to take the neck off to adjust it or what.
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Unread 02-22-2004, 12:23 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lespaul59
My local shop has a MIM Strat for $300 I haven't had a chance to play it yet but as far as I can tell it's in perfect shape besides the strings. The neck looks great, no blems on the guitar it really looks like they just stuck a floor(demo) model in the used gear section. And I was looking at a 50's Strat MIM model and noticed that the truss rod was covered up, do you have to take the neck off to adjust it or what.
Unfortunately, those truss rods are hard to get to. Is it at the headstock or the heel?

Chesh
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