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Unread 02-19-2004, 01:26 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
I just don't have a clue what a strat shaped tele or a tele shaped strat is. Without that, a rebuttal is nothing more that speculation....so I chose sarcasm.
Right . . . here's another analytical equation: sarcasm = touche.



Okay, what I said was really simple to conceptualize, but kinda tricky to convey.

Basically, take unrouted Tele body, which just has the shape and contours of a Tele with no cavities routed for the neck, pickups, controls, and so on. Got it? And let's say it was shrunk or expanded so that the wood volume would be identical to a Strat. Anyone proficient with CAD can do that. Then reprogram the CNC machine and press the button. Anyway . . .

Now, route the "Tele Body" for Strat pickups (typical strat config), Strat control cavity, Strat neck, Strat bridge and back route for the springs, and so on.

Next, load up the "Tele Body" with all Strat hardware and electronics. Now, we have a Tele shaped Strat.

Now, we compare our Tele shaped Strat to a regular Strat (assuming all the hardward and electronics, plus the necks, are all identical for sake of argument).

The only difference would be shape (the 3D contour, and nothing else).

Here's the question: would they sound radically different just because of shape?

Chesh

BTW, it should be apparant that this scenario is not even remotely far fetched. This is a Warmoth No-Brainer, easy. Perhaps not the volumic resizing, but everything else is a phone call away.

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Unread 02-19-2004, 01:40 PM   #32
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Regardless of pickup orientation, the neck pocket is different. This is going to change the tone. No amount of resizing is going the change the fact that there is more wood on the bass side of the neck on a tele.
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Unread 02-19-2004, 01:53 PM   #33
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Also the shape of the neck pocket makes a difference.

All that said....A strat body with tele pickups is still a stratocaster, not a "strat shaped tele".....although many purists would argue that it is not a stratocaster if there is a humbucker in it.

Trust me, I think you had some fun with you experiment design. If there was not a difference between the bodies, you would not see certain pickup designs locked to body styles. There is a reason that when you look at 99% of the tele on the market, they have one pickup configuration. Same with 95% of the strats. Have you seen many LPs with S/S/H? NO! Ever wonder why? The old PRS Studio with S/S/H did not sound like a Strat....No matter what. The set neck and the wood choice does not get you there. A dude over on the old PRS forum did a Vintage "strat" shootout. He tried Chapin, Anderson, Fender and many other vintage styled Strat shaped guitars. In the end, he went back to Fender. The other guitars, even though they were shaped like Strats, did not have the whole package that made the tone that was "sig strat".
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Unread 02-19-2004, 03:22 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
Regardless of pickup orientation, the neck pocket is different. This is going to change the tone. No amount of resizing is going the change the fact that there is more wood on the bass side of the neck on a tele.
AND I SAID, "THE NECKS WOULD BE IDENTICAL, HEADSTOCK TO HEAL".

Did you even bother reading what I wrote? I mean, seriously, I'm grounded and calm right now, but it really pisses me off when people don't bother to read what I wrote and then challenge me on some "unmade" point that I, in fact, already addressed.

Three times I said that the necks would be identical, even stipulating "from headstock to heel".

Ergo, the neck pockets would be identical.

Quote:
Trust me, I think you had some fun with you experiment design. If there was not a difference between the bodies, you would not see certain pickup designs locked to body styles.
What, are you kidding? You think that the choice of pick-up is what drives the choice of body design, or vice versa? Like the shape of the body has certain resonant properties that perfectly gel and amalgamate with the shape of guitar? That is totally absurd. Why? Two reasons:

First, when Leo was designing the Tele and Strat, and Les was designing the 'Paul, they had no clue about resonances of solid body shapes affecting the resonances and responsiveness of pickups. It was all new technology, and the best they could manage was to stick two single coils together in series and flip one of the coils and magnets a full 180o and 360o, respectively. That was about it. Oh, and they could manipulate the trebs a bit with a cap on a pot. And then they did little fiddly bits with DPDT switches which made things interesting in terms of series, parallel, splitting, and O.O.P., and that's it.

Leo pioneered a more effective single coil, ergo the Strat, Tele, J, and P, and The Gibson Co. pioneered the humbucker (thank you Seth Lover). So, that's why Fenders have predominantly single coil pickups and Gibbys have predominantly, bordering on exclusively, humbuckers. And P-90's and P-100's kinda float somewhere in the middle.

The pairing of pickup configs to body types was purely incidental to the evolution of these guitars.

Second, See the following point.

Quote:
There is a reason that when you look at 99% of the tele on the market, they have one pickup configuration. Same with 95% of the strats. Have you seen many LPs with S/S/H? NO! Ever wonder why?
Do I ever wonder why? Quite frankly, no. I know why. To piggyback on my above point, the reason why they haven't changed and we see the same configs over and over is simply because right now the Fender and Gibby market is about 99% purely driven by Nostalgia, pure and simple. The people who are buying up Gibbys and Fenders are the Doctor and Lawyer types who desperately want to recapture their youth. (Tho, it's not isolated to those particular professions. )

There has been a monsterous glut of vintage replicas and retro-reissues put out on the market, with all sorts of nostalgic, patriotic monikers. Tons of them. These guy's want to copy their guitar heros and idols.

And then, there are all the youngin's who are swayed easily by the mass marketing, kinda like Bud and Miller marketing their American Lite Beers as the epitome of zymurgy.

Quote:
The old PRS Studio with S/S/H did not sound like a Strat....No matter what. The set neck and the wood choice does not get you there. A dude over on the old PRS forum did a Vintage "strat" shootout. He tried Chapin, Anderson, Fender and many other vintage styled Strat shaped guitars. In the end, he went back to Fender. The other guitars, even though they were shaped like Strats, did not have the whole package that made the tone that was "sig strat".
Well, you are talking about a bunch of variables, and that is not germaine to your original line of argumentation. Here, the shapes are identical, but everything else is variable, which is the exact opposite of the originally postulated scenario.

Does any of that make sense?

Chesh
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Last edited by CheshireCat; 02-19-2004 at 03:33 PM.
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Unread 02-19-2004, 03:39 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
AND I SAID, "THE NECKS WOULD BE IDENTICAL, HEADSTOCK TO HEAL".

Did you even bother reading what I wrote? I mean, seriously, I'm grounded and calm right now, but it really pisses me off when people don't bother to read what I wrote and then challenge me on some "unmade" point that I, in fact, already addressed.

Three times I said that the necks would be identical, even stipulating "from headstock to heel".

Ergo, the neck pockets would be identical.

Does any of that make sense?

Chesh
Before you go getting "pissed off" about someone not reading your post, you might want to re-read mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
Regardless of pickup orientation, the neck pocket is different. This is going to change the tone. No amount of resizing is going the change the fact that there is more wood on the bass side of the neck on a tele.
The point here is that you need to reshape the body to make the neck pockets match. Forget the fact that the tele is square and the strat is round, FINE. You have a single cutaway on the Tele and double cut on the strat. Same neck in both guitars have different surface area touching between the neck and the body. If you change this, you have either altered the intonation of the guitar (or scale length) or have to remove or add wood to the way the intersection on the BODY (not the neck) takes place.
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Unread 02-19-2004, 03:55 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
What, are you kidding? You think that the choice of pick-up is what drives the choice of body design, or vice versa? Like the shape of the body has certain resonant properties that perfectly gel and amalgamate with the shape of guitar? That is totally absurd. Why? Two reasons:

First, when Leo was designing the Tele and Strat, and Les was designing the 'Paul, they had no clue about resonances of solid body shapes affecting the resonances and responsiveness of pickups. It was all new technology, and the best they could manage was to stick two single coils together in series and flip one of the coils and magnets a full 180o and 360o, respectively. That was about it. Oh, and they could manipulate the trebs a bit with a cap on a pot. And then they did little fiddly bits with DPDT switches which made things interesting in terms of series, parallel, splitting, and O.O.P., and that's it.

Does any of that make sense?

Chesh
WHAT? You think these guys just started guessing? Les Paul and Ted McCarty were engineers and Leo Fender had extensive electronic and mechanical engineering and repair background. These guys were messing with the ingredients of the magnets and the number of windings on the coils to get just the right sounds. There is no "chance" that these guitars came along this way....they worked very hard to make them sound good. The LP was initially created with P-90 pickups. They did not have PAFs until 1957. The P-90 is a single coil pickup, plain and simple. It is wound much more than a Strat pickup for a reason, to eliminate high end and accentuate the mid frequencies lost by laminating a maple cap onto a mahogany body. You know this. Leo on the other hand had been working with Doc Kaufmann from Rickenbacker and designed his own pickups around the bolt on neck and the lack of high end that the alder tree out behind the factory yielded.
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Unread 02-19-2004, 04:00 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus freak!!
Your ok because because you play a Ibenez 570
Ah yes, thank you, but I do play my strat quite regularly...
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Unread 02-19-2004, 04:55 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
WHAT? You think these guys just started guessing? Les Paul and Ted McCarty were engineers and Leo Fender had extensive electronic and mechanical engineering and repair background. These guys were messing with the ingredients of the magnets and the number of windings on the coils to get just the right sounds. There is no "chance" that these guitars came along this way....they worked very hard to make them sound good. The LP was initially created with P-90 pickups. They did not have PAFs until 1957. The P-90 is a single coil pickup, plain and simple. It is wound much more than a Strat pickup for a reason, to eliminate high end and accentuate the mid frequencies lost by laminating a maple cap onto a mahogany body. You know this. Leo on the other hand had been working with Doc Kaufmann from Rickenbacker and designed his own pickups around the bolt on neck and the lack of high end that the alder tree out behind the factory yielded.
Were they guessing? In a word: yes. Now, those guesses were highly, highly educated guesses, no doubt about that. And I only have the highest admiration for them on many, many fronts, this area included.

And obviously they were working very hard to make them sound great, and working on improving the quality of their guitars. This was back in the day when people actually built stuff to last and built-in obsolesence was unheard of, let alone a totally foreign concept, and one that would have been greeted with scorn.

But ultimately they were exploring uncharted territory. And the acoustic sciences weren't in place to make those kinds of distinctions that you are talking about. I am more knowledgeable about this than you would think.

Also, a lot of Leo design decisions were largely influenced by the design sensibilities of the day. For instance, pickup covers. Ever wonder why the Tele only has one pickup cover on one pickup, and not both? That wasn't a function of sound design, or trying to bring out the best sound from the pickups by manipulating the magnetic field. Rather, it was cosmetic.

All the guitars had covers in different combinations up until the advent of the Strat. The Tele had an individual cover on the neck pickup and a full bridge cover which covered the bridge and the pickup built into the bridge. On the P, the pick-up had a cover over the entire pickup in addition to a cover over the bridge, both of which were big, bulky, and encumbersome, which is why players progressively removed the covers. LP's had those shiny individual chrome covers on their pickups. In fact, I think for a short time the Strat had a small cover over the bridge, which ultimately proved impractical (like the rest of them at that).

This is why many of those early guitars have an unusual, idiosyncratic mix of drab utilitarian design mixed in with shiek, spiffy art deco polish. They were all shiek, spiffy art deco polish until players started getting revisionist with them. This was largely influenced by the automotive and applicance industry, something that Leo was very familiar with. Those are the same design senisibilities that led to white wall tires and those half-walled covers on the rear tires of many automobiles at the time, not to mention tail-fins. That was the look and feel of industrially produce appliances, and the brand spanking new guitars of the time reflected that, even down to the formica flavored solid colors the guitars were painted.

I am not disparaging Leo's and Les' work. If anything, I am commending it. But I think some things are getting lost in translation in a big way.

Tell you what, I'll go back and reread your posts so I make sure we are on the same page before I continue.

Fair enough?

Chesh
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Last edited by CheshireCat; 02-19-2004 at 05:00 PM.
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Unread 02-19-2004, 05:52 PM   #39
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Recap a bit..

Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
Regardless of pickup orientation, the neck pocket is different. This is going to change the tone. No amount of resizing is going the change the fact that there is more wood on the bass side of the neck on a tele.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chesh
Basically, take unrouted Tele body, which just has the shape and contours of a Tele with no cavities routed for the neck, pickups, controls, and so on. Got it? And let's say it was shrunk or expanded so that the wood volume would be identical to a Strat
...
Now, route the "Tele Body" for Strat pickups (typical strat config), Strat control cavity, Strat neck, Strat bridge and back route for the springs, and so on.
If you rout it to fit a Strat neck, the two neck pockets would be identical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
2) The position of the bridge on the body makes a difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chesh
Next, load up the "Tele Body" with all Strat hardware and electronics. Now, we have a Tele shaped Strat.
Strat hardware, meaning a Strat bridge in the position it would be for a Strat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
All that said....A strat body with tele pickups is still a stratocaster, not a "strat shaped tele"...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chesh
Now, route the "Tele Body" for Strat pickups (typical strat config), Strat control cavity, Strat neck, Strat bridge and back route for the springs, and so on.
...
Strat hardware and electronics. Now, we have a Tele shaped Strat.
You'll have a Strat essentially, but just have the body be a tele body.

Through Science I can now give you a rough visual of what a Tele shaped Strat looks like.
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Unread 02-19-2004, 06:05 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainer123
Recap a bit..
If you rout it to fit a Strat neck, the two neck pockets would be identical.

AND

You'll have a Strat essentially, but just have the body be a tele body.
No, a tele routed for a strat neck would still be a Tele with a single cutaway. Sorry.

AND

Stratocaster IS a body shape not a pickup arrangement. Look at the fender catalog. If you look at the Nashville Telecaster, it has 3 pickups but not called a Strat. The James Burton Tele had 3 lace sensors strat pickups....but it was a tele. Additionally, a strat body with two humbuckers is not a LP...it is a strat. They are all tied to the body/headstock design.
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Unread 02-19-2004, 06:15 PM   #41
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I'm personally sick of and mad at my strat. it supposed to be better than it is(my dad got it for me on a business trip, got an incredible deal, so we didn't get ripped off by any means)

But for how much this guitar costs off the shelf, it doesn't play that well.

thinking of dealing it away even..
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Unread 02-19-2004, 06:23 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trpullen
No, a tele routed for a strat neck would still be a Tele with a single cutaway. Sorry.
I can't argue with you on that, but does that mean that only the shape around the neck joint is the important thing?

Quote:
Stratocaster IS a body shape not a pickup arrangement. Look at the fender catalog. If you look at the Nashville Telecaster, it has 3 pickups but not called a Strat. The James Burton Tele had 3 lace sensors strat pickups....but it was a tele. Additionally, a strat body with two humbuckers is not a LP...it is a strat. They are all tied to the body/headstock design.
OK... Forget the name for a second. This isn't about what the name is. The point is that a guitar with body shape A that is identical to another guitar with body shape B will sound the same. Think of it this way. You build a guitar on a rectangular plank. you build an identical guitar with the exact same volume of wood, except it's a triangle. They won't sound noticibly different, if at all.

Also, I think that "Strats" "Teles" "LPs" and whatever are not just the body/headstock shape, but a number of other things. That includes electronics, body, neck, styling, etc., etc., etc. You fit a Strat with Tele pickups, no it's not an Tele, it's a Strat. Not just because of the body, but because of the pickguard, the electronics arrangement, the tremolo, the headstock/body, etc.
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Unread 02-19-2004, 06:44 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Also, a lot of Leo design decisions were largely influenced by the design sensibilities of the day. For instance, pickup covers. Ever wonder why the Tele only has one pickup cover on one pickup, and not both? That wasn't a function of sound design, or trying to bring out the best sound from the pickups by manipulating the magnetic field. Rather, it was cosmetic.

Chesh
OK. I am done. I just realized that you have so much wrong information here that this arguement is completely futile. You are now just spreading complete mis-information. The purpose of the covers was to shield the single coil pickups from electro-magnetic interference. Much like the Rickenbacker "horseshoe" magenet pickups, this was the best way they found to keep the noise out. OK, sure, they looked cool and the look of them was based on cool car designs of the day, the reason they even considered them was to get rid of noise on the Broadcaster, Tele, Pbass and others.

Sorry chief.
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Unread 02-19-2004, 06:49 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainer123
I can't argue with you on that, but does that mean that only the shape around the neck joint is the important thing?

OK... Forget the name for a second. This isn't about what the name is. The point is that a guitar with body shape A that is identical to another guitar with body shape B will sound the same. Think of it this way. You build a guitar on a rectangular plank. you build an identical guitar with the exact same volume of wood, except it's a triangle. They won't sound noticibly different, if at all.

Also, I think that "Strats" "Teles" "LPs" and whatever are not just the body/headstock shape, but a number of other things. That includes electronics, body, neck, styling, etc., etc., etc. You fit a Strat with Tele pickups, no it's not an Tele, it's a Strat. Not just because of the body, but because of the pickguard, the electronics arrangement, the tremolo, the headstock/body, etc.
Great observation. Style A and B are better names. And the answer is YES, a rectangle and a triangle will sound different even if the wood is the same and the volume is the same. That is the whole point. Ever wonder why a Korina wood Flying V and a Korina Explorer sound so different? Same deal. Depending on how you attach the triangle, you will either have a point where the neck attaches and thus, a different neck joint OR a point back behind the bridge yielding the same right angle neck joint but less mass behind the bridge.
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Unread 02-19-2004, 06:53 PM   #45
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There will be people out ther that will be able to tell the difference between the controled guitars because the body will resonate differently. The vibrations will travel in different paths. And if you put controled neck on a strat body and a tele body unless you design the heel of the neck to be a mix of both strat and tele heel the vibration transfur will be different and cause a difference is tone. I could have missed so stuff so don't get on to me to bad if I'm talking about something thats all ready been discussed.
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