[ChrisHarbison]

Originally Posted by Dr. Doom

just wondering, what do modern demon possessions look like?

Only the Charasmatics know .

Originally Posted by Blindman

1) Demons can cause physical illnesses in people (see Lk 13:10-17, the woman crippled by an evil spirit). So why can't demons cause mental illness?

Except for the small fact that virtually all disease can be traced to some biological cause (eg. virus, bacteria, genetic defect, etc.). I might buy this as a possibilty on the very extremely rare occasion that an illness occurs that doctors are completely stumped on the cause of it.

Originally Posted by Blindman

2) Our thoughts and actions influence the physiology of our brains, not just the other way around. So it's perfectly reasonable to say that a spiritual problem could create physical side effects in someone's brain.

What? If by actions you mean suicide via shooting one's self in the head, then yeah, other than that, neither of these change the physiology of our brains. If you can find a medical journal or textbook that says otherwise then I'd gladly admit to being wrong, but I'm fairly confident I'm not.

I see no reason to believe that demons are out and about afflicting people today.

I made a snide remark above, but it was half serious. Why is it that only the Charasmatic church seems to have a problem with demonic possession. I grew up in a Baptist church, and 2 years now in the Presbyterian and in all my 24 years, the ONLY people that I've heard of (or heard of through friends) that have "experienced demonic" possession or affliction have been Charasmatic. I'm seriously not trying to dog the Charamatics, but I'm asking a very serious and in my opinion fair question, why is it that that denomination is the only one to deal with this "issue"?

[ChrisHarbison]

Originally Posted by Gracie Love

Right on. What about the women witht the affliction of Blood for 18 years. Luke 13:10-13. That story was also in Matthew. It was called and illness(infirmity) and an unclean spirit.

Luke 13:10-13 (ESV)
"Now he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. [11] And there was a woman who had had a disabling spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not fully straighten herself. [12] When Jesus saw her, he called her over and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your disability." [13] And he laid his hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and she glorified God."

There is no reference to an affliction of blood anywhere in this text.
I can understand perfectly why the disciples would believe and write about a "disabling spirit", but I see no reason to believe that this is literally what it was. The disciples had no clue of such diseases as osteoperosis, or scoliosis (which is an abnormal lateral curvature of the spine, resulting in an inablitity to stand up straight, likely what this woman had), etc. I don't doubt the inerrancy of this passage at all. I firmly believe that a woman was afflicted with an "infirmity" (vs.12) and that she was miraculously healed by Christ. I do doubt that it was actually a demon. I believe the apostles had no other way of describing this "infirmity".

[Gracie Love]

Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison

Only the Charasmatics know .



Except for the small fact that virtually all disease can be traced to some biological cause (eg. virus, bacteria, genetic defect, etc.). I might buy this as a possibilty on the very extremely rare occasion that an illness occurs that doctors are completely stumped on the cause of it.



What? If by actions you mean suicide via shooting one's self in the head, then yeah, other than that, neither of these change the physiology of our brains. If you can find a medical journal or textbook that says otherwise then I'd gladly admit to being wrong, but I'm fairly confident I'm not.

I see no reason to believe that demons are out and about afflicting people today.

I made a snide remark above, but it was half serious. Why is it that only the Charasmatic church seems to have a problem with demonic possession. I grew up in a Baptist church, and 2 years now in the Presbyterian and in all my 24 years, the ONLY people that I've heard of (or heard of through friends) that have "experienced demonic" possession or affliction have been Charasmatic. I'm seriously not trying to dog the Charamatics, but I'm asking a very serious and in my opinion fair question, why is it that that denomination is the only one to deal with this "issue"?

First off I became a Charismatic after the fact of the pocession that I described. The 2 people afflicted where Lutherian and Mormon.

Second, As I said in another thread. Why would God and the Holy Spirit give a gift or let you see something the you have no Faith that it exist. Demon pocessions even glorify God. It is only by God that you can cast them out. There for it glorifies God.

[ChrisHarbison]

Originally Posted by Gracie Love

First off I became a Charismatic after the fact of the pocession that I described. The 2 people afflicted where Lutherian and Mormon.

I'm not convinced they were possessions. Why did you run to the Charasmatic church afterwards? (again, I'm not bashing denominations, I'm legitimately curious) What did the Lutheran church have to say about the "possession". I'm not concerned with the Mormon point of view as they're a non-Christian cult.

Originally Posted by Gracie Love

Second, As I said in another thread why would God and the Holy Spirit give or something to somebody that doesn't have faith that it exist?

I'm sorry, but I have no clue what you just said.

[Gracie Love]

[QUOTE=ChrisHarbison]I'm not convinced they were possessions. Why did you run to the Charasmatic church afterwards?QUOTE]


Why did you change from a Baptist church to Presb. Church?

That is where God led me. That is where he wanted me to be. I didn't have the choice.

I believe seeing all that was God's way of Slapping me up side the head and saying get in to church. Just like there was someone at my house that night had stood up a friend to come over to visit me and my husband. I looked at him and asked him to come get us for church in the morning. I walked into the church and that was it. Apostle gives a "sugar free" message. Meaning that he doesn't preach what the people want to hear. He preaches what God wants them to hear. He may plan a sermon but never preaches from his notes.

There are no "Bertha-better-than-you" types there. It is a true family. Do you understand what I am talking about?

[Deren]

CHRIS:
"Luke 13:10-13 (ESV)
"Now he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. [11] And there was a woman who had had a disabling spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not fully straighten herself. [12] When Jesus saw her, he called her over and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your disability." [13] And he laid his hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and she glorified God."

ME:
Good call on that one, defintly demons/devils/spirits are not literal things, they are clealy mental ilness/infirmities. I'll deal with the popular Jude 6 verse and 2peter verses when I get home to my bible, but the problem in using those verses to try and back up literal demons is that the word "demon"/devil" dont mean what you think they do in the greek, and I'll bust out my strong's concordance to show you.

Back then they didn't know about desierses like that so they used words to describe them as such. It was popular in the middle ages to have a physicain cut off someones leg because they thought he was "demon possesed" when really the person had some kind of disabiltiy, desiese or the like. They got these influences from the bible beceause as well all know, the vast majourity of the Eurpoean West in the middle ages was Christianized by the Catholic Church.

peace,
-Deren

[ChrisHarbison]

[QUOTE=Gracie Love]

Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison

I'm not convinced they were possessions. Why did you run to the Charasmatic church afterwards?QUOTE]


Why did you change from a Baptist church to Presb. Church?

That is where God led me. That is where he wanted me to be. I didn't have the choice.

I believe seeing all that was God's way of Slapping me up side the head and saying get in to church. Just like there was someone at my house that night had stood up a friend to come over to visit me and my husband. I looked at him and asked him to come get us for church in the morning. I walked into the church and that was it. Apostle gives a "sugar free" message. Meaning that he doesn't preach what the people want to hear. He preaches what God wants them to hear. He may plan a sermon but never preaches from his notes.

There are no "Bertha-better-than-you" types there. It is a true family. Do you understand what I am talking about?

You didn't even try to answer my question. What did the Lutheran church that your friend (or whoever he/she was) attended say about this "possession"? Why is the Charasmatic church the only denomination that suffers from such "afflictions"?

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Dr. Doom, if you want to know what Modern Demon Possesion looks like. Hillview Baptist church in Montego Bay Jamaica, on top of the hill overlooking the slums has demoniacs almost every service. They actually have a cell in there foyer and a group of huge deacons to catch these guys when they come into the service screaming and destroying things.

I witnessed the possession and freeing of a 4 yr old girl there. The superhumna strength and obsenities screamed in a deep bass voice against Jesus Christ were pretty safe indicators. but By God's grace He chose to free her when we prayed for him to leave her.

You can see it in New guinea with the Shamans, you can see it with those deep in voodoo in Jamaica. But I have never witnessed it in the states.

I think as inteligent beings they use tactics.

In America we are a technologically rationalistic culture that immediately would attribute it to mental illness. They would be locked away and pitied. In animistic cultures they instill fear, and control by possesion enabling them to slow the spread of the gospel through fear of themselves. Hence it would be advantageous to go where you would have a positive effect to your cause, not a negative.

With spirituality often looked on as a primitive holdover, we would do well to realize that here a direct assault of possession would make people question the potential existance of that realm when they are convinced it is not there, if it was not just viewed as mental illness.

[Dr. Doom]

Originally Posted by Gracie Love

Second, As I said in another thread. Why would God and the Holy Spirit give a gift or let you see something the you have no Faith that it exist.

Maybe because He has been doing so since the beginning of mankind? Seriously, are you honestly trying to say that one can only witness these things after one already believes in them? What about Christ revealing Himself to us in the first place? We aren't pursuing God but He had to come to us. Honestly, this statment is just ridiculous.

And frankly i am getting tired of the accusations that we don't have enough or the right kind of faith to see these things. I mean, how many times have we heard it from people who put Mary or the Saints higher than some of us, but we are told that we don't have faith strong enough to have a "relationship" with mary or that we don't have enough faith to believe that bread literally turns to flesh. It is the exact same accusation.

[Dr. Doom]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Dr. Doom, if you want to know what Modern Demon Possesion looks like. Hillview Baptist church in Montego Bay Jamaica, on top of the hill overlooking the slums has demoniacs almost every service. They actually have a cell in there foyer and a group of huge deacons to catch these guys when they come into the service screaming and destroying things.

I witnessed the possession and freeing of a 4 yr old girl there. The superhumna strength and obsenities screamed in a deep bass voice against Jesus Christ were pretty safe indicators. but By God's grace He chose to free her when we prayed for him to leave her.

I'd really like to see something like that. Not "like" as in I'd enjoy it, but as you say it would be pretty convincing. Really, there is little explanation for what you describe other than demon possession, but still hearing it second hand isn't exactly ironclad proof. Not that i am trying to indicate i doubt you, of course.

Also, this is something i have to wonder about, why are these possessions at such a concentrated area and so often there, yet all across other areas there is little to no account of this? I realize you gave the explanation of the U.S. considering these things as illness, but a 4 year old girl talking in crazy deep voices would surely get a bit more attention wouldn't it?

[xSuspensionx]

Originally Posted by Dr. Doom

Also, this is something i have to wonder about, why are these possessions at such a concentrated area and so often there, yet all across other areas there is little to no account of this? I realize you gave the explanation of the U.S. considering these things as illness, but a 4 year old girl talking in crazy deep voices would surely get a bit more attention wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

I think as inteligent beings they use tactics.

So, more or less, they don't bother, because,
1) We would ignore them and write it off as something else.
2) A large portion of America is already fighting against Christianity; humans are doing the demons' work for them.

[Mike Graham]

Oh, poor me, I guess this means I have no choice but to go to Jamaica.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

unfortunately I can but tell you where I saw it, but that part of Jamaica is not for the faint of heart.

[Dr. Doom]

Originally Posted by xSuspensionx

A large portion of America is already fighting against Christianity; humans are doing the demons' work for them.

What, exactly, is the "demons' work?" To cause people not to believe? If that is the case, how int he world would possessing children work, all it does is cause people to pray to God against them. Could you explain how you meant this?

[Dr. Doom]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

unfortunately I can but tell you where I saw it, but that part of Jamaica is not for the faint of heart.

what does that have to do with whether or not they are all in places that aren't easily accessible to us?

plus, what decides if someone is "faint of heart?"