[Rhythm_guy]

First off, let's not make assumptions about OLD folks & rock. I'm 46, our worship leader is 47, lead guitarist is 45, and we can (and do) rock with the best of them.

Now, back to the topic: "praise & worship music" is not a musical style, and I would hope that "P&W music" does not upset anyone here. A few key points come to mind that may help you and your pastor have a better understanding of each other:

1) "Praise" and "worship" aren't even the same thing. The words have been lumped together by folks who use that term to sell products. Do a study on what "praise" means and what "worship" means. In the Psalms many times "praise" was meant to be loud - a public display of your affection & devotion to God. "Worship" is usually considered a more private thing - you worship when you pray, when you give, when you serve. Many "praise and worship" services have a louder faster time and a slower more reflective time. Maybe your pastor thinks you focus on the "praise" and not enough on the "worship?" Maybe he prefers a slower style of music, or maybe he prefers a different mix? I really have no idea, just a thought.

2) There certainly are some "P&W" titles out there that many would consider "rock." "Angus Dei" comes to mind - as far as musical styles go Michael W. Smith's version and 3rd Day's version are the same song in different styles & each draws different folks to worship because of the message. You can't draw a distinction between a musical style (rock) and a purpose (praise or worship). It's like oranges & tangerines - they're different fruits but they're both orange.

3) Being human your pastor has his own musical preferences, and being the pastor he has the final say in what happens in his services. If you want to help educate him I would suggest that he get a Hillsong DVD & watch & listen to their "P&W music." While it is far from what I would consider "rock," I would have a hard time classifying some of it as "slow & peaceful," either.

IMHO - the bottom line is you & your pastor need to communicate better on what is wanted & needed in the "P&W" service.

[BluesJunkie]

Originally Posted by BurntHombre

You don't like praise & worship music? That's a pretty broad category, isn't it?

Originally Posted by ryanspeer

Not sure exactly what you mean by that, but seeing as you'll be expected to a whole lot of it up there in heaven, I do suggest you get used to it...

I'm not saying I hate praising God with music. I hate the CCM genre "Praise and Worship", and I also hate the music popular in many churches that copies the style. All the Maranantha (sp?) stuff, Michael Card, Third Day, and all the other bands that do Praise and Worshippy stuff, and all the dudes strumming suspended chords on acoustics while singing "Worthy" in trance-like states for two hours - that's the kind of stuff I hate.

I prefer something with more realness and soul. Even the tired old hymns and the grossly emotional Southern Gospel are better than that white-bread, mindless, ultra-sanitized "P & W".

Not trying to offend, just giving my opinion. Anyway, my original point was that even if you hate the music, obey your pastor and respect your brothers in the church.

[PianoMan]

Originally Posted by BluesJunkie

I also hate the music popular in many churches that copies the style. All the Maranantha (sp?) stuff, Michael Card, Third Day, and all the other bands that do Praise and Worshippy stuff, and all the dudes strumming suspended chords on acoustics while singing "Worthy" in trance-like states for two hours - that's the kind of stuff I hate.

kinda off topic...where did you get the idea that Third Day sounds like that? They are rock with a bit of southern flavor.

[BluesJunkie]

Originally Posted by PianoMan

kinda off topic...where did you get the idea that Third Day sounds like that? They are rock with a bit of southern flavor.

Didn't they make a "P&W" cd? I might have them confused with someone else, but I could have sworn I've heard P&W by them on the radio. If not, I stand corrected.

I have listened to one of the big non-P&W Third Day albums all the way through twice. A co-worker loaned it to me touting it as a great "Christian Southern rock" album, but it didn't sound anything like any Southern rock I've ever heard. Sounded like the same old modern CCM crap with maybe a little more guitar (crappy guitar at that). I tried to like it, and that's why I gave it a second listen. I remember there was one halfway decent song on the album, but the rest was quite forgettable.

Anyway, as I said before, my hatred of P&W was a small part of a larger point.

[Major Tom]

Blues Junkie wrote:
I hate the CCM genre "Praise and Worship", and I also hate the music popular in many churches that copies the style.

I don't feel quite that strongly about it, but I'm not real crazy about that genre either. It is very "white bread" and sanitized for the suburban masses. It is very narrow in its scope, IMHO. The stuff we do at our church is very much in that vein, and seems to have strict guidelines and a formula. If I ever bring up a suggestion about how to do a tune, like maybe that a reggae or latin beat might work well for that song, they laugh and think I'm kidding... ?! I brought up the idea of using a tambourine once - " Gee Tom, I don't know, that reminds me of such and such." I am such a rebel But then, I am a transplant - was playing in gigging cover bands for years, and then was called into this a couple years ago.


Any of these sound familiar ?

Music leader going over the arrangement for one of these tunes:
" OK, it starts out with me alone on my guitar, I will sing the first verse by myself, and then I want you guys to come in on the chorus. Then drop down real soft for the second verse, then drop out for the 2nd chorus, which will be me and my guitar alone. Then come back in for the third verse. After that, drop out, I will sing the chorus alone with my guitar 3 times, then 2 more chorus acapella. Got that? OK, now for the 2nd song, I will start that one alone with my guitar, and sing the first verse by myself...."

Music leader during practice, stops the song in the middle of the first verse:
" WHOA, hey guys - this isn't supposed to sound like Van Halen or something, this is a WORSHIPFUL song !" I guess a couple of us keep forgetting that you can't be WORSHIPFUL with a strong beat or distorted guitar...

As far as the age thing, that is a relative term, but I would say that most people that are, say 55 to 60 or so and under, are pretty much from a "rock" music generation ( I'm 48 me-self).

[gchord]

I think if you have a medium size church and can't do all,contempary ,p&w and old style hymns,you have to mix it up,that's what we do anyway.Maybe during a youth night of worship,you can experiment with new sounds,or maybe spice up some old hymns! Ever hear Amazing Grace played to the tune of California Girls? It can be done,or the popular p&w song Take my Heart,if you're an older rock n roll bass player you can add the bassline of Steve Miller's The Joker to it. I love to play and hear a searing guitar solo myself,even at my age(45) but sometimes you have to sit back and listen to the quiteness of it all and let the Holy Spirit guide you thru the words and it the still of it all. A few years ago ,my wife and I attended the youth councils retreat in the two state region,Ar. and Okla.the musical guest that night was Avalon. When they played their hit,Testify to love, most of the 350-500 youth joined in the middle to form a giant "mosh pit" I guess that's what they call it and began to bounce up and down and swaying to the music. Some probably got it,others done it because everybody else was doing it ,most did not stop their mouths long enough to hear what Jodie Macbrayer had to say about praising God with music.I'm sure some heard but most were caught up in the moment.I believe you can worship in a crowd,but you get it most when the Spirit is dealing with you one on one.

[Rainer.]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

I don't feel quite that strongly about it, but I'm not real crazy about that genre either. It is very "white bread" and sanitized for the suburban masses. It is very narrow in its scope, IMHO.

Yes, I agree. Most of modern P&W is pretty much blank. I'll feel more excited about going to a Metallica concert then a Third Day concert...

The stuff we do at our church is very much in that vein, and seems to have strict guidelines and a formula. If I ever bring up a suggestion about how to do a tune, like maybe that a reggae or latin beat might work well for that song, they laugh and think I'm kidding... ?! I brought up the idea of using a tambourine once - " Gee Tom, I don't know, that reminds me of such and such." I am such a rebel But then, I am a transplant - was playing in gigging cover bands for years, and then was called into this a couple years ago.

I wonder what they were thinking... "Ground Control To Major Tom..."

Any of these sound familiar ?

Music leader going over the arrangement for one of these tunes:
" OK, it starts out with me alone on my guitar, I will sing the first verse by myself, and then I want you guys to come in on the chorus. Then drop down real soft for the second verse, then drop out for the 2nd chorus, which will be me and my guitar alone. Then come back in for the third verse. After that, drop out, I will sing the chorus alone with my guitar 3 times, then 2 more chorus acapella. Got that? OK, now for the 2nd song, I will start that one alone with my guitar, and sing the first verse by myself...."

Music leader during practice, stops the song in the middle of the first verse:
" WHOA, hey guys - this isn't supposed to sound like Van Halen or something, this is a WORSHIPFUL song !" I guess a couple of us keep forgetting that you can't be WORSHIPFUL with a strong beat or distorted guitar...

As far as the age thing, that is a relative term, but I would say that most people that are, say 55 to 60 or so and under, are pretty much from a "rock" music generation ( I'm 48 me-self).

The bulk of the people in my church are mostly Vietnamese immigrants, between 40-50, and they pretty much can't stand our rock music.

[ryanspeer]

Originally Posted by BluesJunkie

Didn't they make a "P&W" cd? I might have them confused with someone else, but I could have sworn I've heard P&W by them on the radio. If not, I stand corrected.

I have listened to one of the big non-P&W Third Day albums all the way through twice. A co-worker loaned it to me touting it as a great "Christian Southern rock" album, but it didn't sound anything like any Southern rock I've ever heard. Sounded like the same old modern CCM crap with maybe a little more guitar (crappy guitar at that). I tried to like it, and that's why I gave it a second listen. I remember there was one halfway decent song on the album, but the rest was quite forgettable.

Anyway, as I said before, my hatred of P&W was a small part of a larger point.

I hear what you're saying about despising the mass-marketting of what's termed "P&W" music these days. I honestly do. However, I do think (based on your posts in this thread) that you're unjustly "throwing the baby out with the bath water", if you know what I mean. Is there a bunch of Christian music crap out there that has nothing but a bunch of essentially meaningless spiritualeeze phrases that are put together simply because they rhyme? Absolutely. Are there a bunch of people churning out P&W music simply because they can make a lucrative living at it? Absolutely. Are there many songs that have incredibly heart-felt words that in reality, are intended only for God and that pull (no, check that, YANK on my heart) to worship God with everything in me? Absolutely.

Agnus Dei (Michael W. Smith). No, it's not my favorite song in the world. Read Revelation chapter 4 however, and tell me that it's a bunch of nonsense. If it's good enough for the angels to sing around God's throne, I dare say that maybe I ought to give it a try.

Your Love Oh Lord (Third Day). Psalm 36:5-6. If Kind David could write it and be referred to as a "man after God's heart", then maybe I can learn a few things from that. After all, it's from the book that I very firmly believe is completely inspired by the living God - not in part, but in whole.

See what I mean about "throwing the baby out with the bathwater"? Although I do understand what you're saying about hating the modern Christian music scene and the mass-marketing of it all (honestly, I do), we do need to be careful what we're saying, or in this case, typing.

Do I love everything from Smitty? No, actually Agnus Dei is about the only song I really care for from him. Do I love everything from Third Day? I love most of it, but not all. Regardless, who'se my real audience?

[R2D2]

First off, I would suggest that a mod move this thread to the Worship Leaders forum, as I think it belongs more there.

I'm going to throw my two cents in the pot, but let me begin by saying I have learned a lot on the past year or so about art, music, worship and the interesection of these. My view on the question at hand has changed tremendously as I've learned this stuff, and will continue to change. I mean this post to be food for thought, more than anything else.

Several people have stated something to the effect of "musical style doesn't matter in worship", and I would have to say I disagree, to a certain extent--if the music doesn't matter, then why not cut the music entirely, and just use the text? This is, after all, something St. Augustine considered--banning music from use in worship services. If music is merely a way to use the text in an entertaining way, then music should not be used at all in worship services; our purpose in worshipping has very little (if anything) in common with entertainment. It would be better to just corporately recite the text.

However, music does and can serve an important function: music is art. As such, music has the power to express the inexpressible; well done music should express more than what the words alone express.

For this reason, the music matters alot. There is music that is most definitely appropriate for use in worship, and there is music that is most definitely not appropriate for use in worship. For example, music that is excessively sappy and happy is not appropriate for a song of contrition and confession. Music written in a minor key would likely be more appropriate.

I am utterly and thoroughly convinced that one thing our worship music should be is creative. It is an act of worship to present our creative offerings to the creator who made us. Creativity in all its different forms has a place in Christian worship.

So, is rock appropriate? At times, I think so. It is appropriate because of God's immanence. In perhaps the most vulgar event in all of history, the creator of the universe became like a diseased smelly man...like one of his creations. He became one of us, and by doing so, was able to communicate with us, because he met us where we're at. For this reason it is appropriate to use music that meets people where they're at; using the common tunes and styles of the day (such as rock, and the style commonly referred to as "praise and worship") is appropriate. I've heard of many cases where Missionaries went to another culture and imposed our westernized standards of worship music on an indigenous culture, and I think this is an absolute tragedy--this culture should be allowed to create its own worship music in its own musical forms.

At the same time, I think that is a very good thing to use worship music that is entirely different from the forms and genres we're used to. The Church (and the Kingdom of God) is something entirely different from the world; it is good and proper for this to be reflected in our worship music. It reminds us as we enter into a worship service that we're doing something special, something unique, that is only possible by the utterly incomprehendible grace of God. God is immanent (as I noted above), but he is also transcendent (one of the many paradoxes of the Gospel!), and our music should be a good reminder of this. For this reason, I love the chants of Taize. And I love Gregorian chant.

There's more I could say (and may say later), but that's it for now. It should be noted that some of my thinking on this topic is shaped by Harold M. Best's excellent essay, "Christian Responsibility in Music" found in The Christian Imagination: Essays on Literature and the Arts.

[Jesus freak!!]

Thanks for all your input. I think we play the music and God moves through us. We should not try to make somthing up.We should be sensitive to what God would have us play. The band I play with gets mad because I change the songs right when we play them.Music like 3rd day is classified as Praise and Worship music, that is what they play. I like 3rd day, great band. But most of the time I would perfer kutless,pod,lifehouse that type of stuff. As for being sensitive to the people in the crowd, I think do what the Holy Spirit tells you to do regardless of the people out there. And a Pastor should trust his P&W leader he is the one up there that is anointed. Oh ya and Ill move the age up to 65 OK. Sorry

[Jepper74]

Personally I believe the best kind of praise and worship is one that starts out with the upbeat songs, and then slowly progresses to the more slower type songs... that way it helps "set the mood" for the rest of the service.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by Jepper74

Personally I believe the best kind of praise and worship is one that starts out with the upbeat songs, and then slowly progresses to the more slower type songs... that way it helps "set the mood" for the rest of the service.

Ok, so this is your opinion...but why? Is there a theological reason why it should be so? Is there a practical reason? These are the questions that we need to be asking.

[ryanspeer]

Originally Posted by Jepper74

Personally I believe the best kind of praise and worship is one that starts out with the upbeat songs, and then slowly progresses to the more slower type songs... that way it helps "set the mood" for the rest of the service.

Ya' know, in every church I've ever attended for as long as I can remember, that's the exact pattern that's almost ALWAYS followed. To sum it up, every church I've ever attended (and I do mean this quite literally) is stuck in a musical rut and I still have yet to hear a REAL valid explanation from anybody why that rut is so all-fired-up important.

Is the point of a worship service to get everybody hyped up and then gently bring their emotions down to a state of peace and calm? Now, there is an ebb and flow of our expressions of worship to God, but nowhere do I read that they're supposed to follow a set pattern. The only reason for the fast>slow method of a worship service that I've ever had explained to me is based on a "well, let's get everybody excited and praising God and then slowly bring it down to a nice mellow, introspective time of worship". Again, there's a time and place for that, but every time I've ever suggested doing the opposite, it's met with rejection. Not because of me, or the method of the suggestion, but because "we've never done it that way", or "that's not the way it should go", or "but we need to get everybody excited about God first".

Have we dilluted our expressions of praise and worship to God to nothing more than emotional manipulation? Could this possibly have anything to do with why people's zeal and excitement about Christ and the things of Christ dies down so quickly after a summer camp, a choir tour, a service opportunity, a missions trip, etc.?

[regulon]

To answer the last paragraph, yes and yes

Rep coming...

[Indazone]

From a logistical issue, I think *part* of the reason our youth group song set follows that pattern regularly is because we start our program out with the music. Students are generally hyper when they come in, so I think we play into that a bit and play upbeat songs first, then gradually shift it down for a calmer mood during the sermon/message/whatever.

Not saying it's right or wrong, but I know that plays some into the design of the sets at my church.