Lightknight vs. ChaletPol: John 3

Lightknight · 01-10-2004, 11:34 PM

You requested it. I made the thread. You start off. Preferably, let's debate one point at a time.

ChaletPol · 01-10-2004, 11:38 PM

Well, I hope you don't mind, but I would like to examine this one passage at a time. Let's start with John 3.

Lightknight · 01-10-2004, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaletPol

Well, I hope you don't mind, but I would like to examine this one passage at a time. Let's start with John 3.

John three as in the entire chapter? You can quote if you wish. A good site is www.blueletterbible.org

ChaletPol · 01-10-2004, 11:41 PM

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Lightknight · 01-10-2004, 11:42 PM

ok, so what's your specific point here?

ChaletPol · 01-10-2004, 11:44 PM

What do you understand "born again" to mean in light of verses three, five, and six?

Lightknight · 01-10-2004, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaletPol

What do you understand "born again" to mean in light of verses three, five, and six?

It is refering to baptism.

ChaletPol · 01-10-2004, 11:46 PM

If it is referring to baptism, then do you believe that baptism automatically confers the Holy Spirit?

Lightknight · 01-10-2004, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaletPol

If it is referring to baptism, then do you believe that baptism automatically confers the Holy Spirit?

depends. John the Baptist baptised with water, but Jesus does it with fire. what type are you talking about?

ChaletPol · 01-10-2004, 11:50 PM

There's a turn I wasn't expecting. Well, what do you take baptism "with fire" to mean?

Lightknight · 01-10-2004, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaletPol

There's a turn I wasn't expecting. Well, what do you take baptism "with fire" to mean?

It is baptism with the Holy Ghost (the Spirit)

Lightknight · 01-10-2004, 11:54 PM

alright. My lids are falling. I have to go for the night. I'll reply to one more post then I'm going to beddy bye.

ChaletPol · 01-10-2004, 11:55 PM

1) What do you take baptism with the Holy Ghost to mean?
2) Given that Christ says being born of the Holy Ghost is a prerequisite for entrance into the kingdom, do you think verses seven and eight say anything about who will be born of the Holy Ghost?

Lightknight · 01-11-2004, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaletPol

1) What do you take baptism with the Holy Ghost to mean?
2) Given that Christ says being born of the Holy Ghost is a prerequisite for entrance into the kingdom, do you think verses seven and eight say anything about who will be born of the Holy Ghost?

The Apostles laid hands on people for them to recieve the Holy Spirit. I believe it is the outpouring of the Spirit of God.

Sounds like a pretty rangom process to me.

night

ChaletPol · 01-11-2004, 12:24 AM

We must be careful in our language here. This is where we have gone so far:

Jesus says that, in order to see the kingdom of God, we must be born again. Furthermore, no one can enter the kingdom of God if they are not born of water and the Spirit.

If we understand "born again" to be baptism-- by water and by the Spirit-- then this means one must be baptised with the Holy Spirit. We must look more closely at exactly what being baptised with the Holy Spirit means. I do not think I am fully satisfied with your response. [...although I wholeheartedly agree that it is getting late. What's more, you're in Florida. I'm an hour behind you. Anyway...]

If we need the apostles to lay hands on us in order to be baptised with the Holy Spirit, does this not mean we are not saved? I'm sure you wanted to say much more about this, but you're probably even more tired than I am.

Consider verse six. Could Jesus be employing the same terminology that Paul uses to distinguish between naturally sinful man and the spiritual man? What are some of the manifestations of the outpouring of the Spirit of God? A deeper look at what the work of the Spirit is in the life of a believer is in order, but that will have to wait until we're done with this text.

Would you agree, then, that this passage seems to indicate that not everyone is born of the Spirit?