Lightknight vs. ChaletPol: John 3

ChaletPol · 01-31-2004, 11:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Lightknight

ok, what I meant, is that Jesus was saying that when we become saved our spirits are given new life that they did not have since the fall of man.

I agree with you here. We are given new life by the Spirit.

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Originally Posted by Lightknight

The physical cannot comprehend the spiritual world in the since that it can't actually see or hear it. It can believe in it, but not actually sense it. ...This chapter must be refering to the inability to go to heaven without being baptised of the spirit.

Um... In all this, you have yet to really respond to what I have said concerning verse eight, and what you have said is a strong indication to me that I really did not misunderstand you. What you are saying seems to me to be simply that we cannot see the Spirit. I believe that is true, but more than that is true:

[8]"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

John 3:8 (NAS)

This verse is not simply saying that we cannot see the Spirit. It says that the Spirit goes where it wishes and, although we "hear the sound of it" (see its work), we "do not know where it comes from and where it is going" to give people this new life of which we speak ("so is everyone who is born of the Spirit"). This seems to me to be very clearly saying that

We do not control where the Spirit blows: "The wind blows where it wishes..."
We can see the fruit that the Spirit produces: "...you hear the sound of it..."
We cannot predict where the Spirit will blow: "...[you] do not know where it comes from and where it is going..."
Where the Spirit "blows," there is where people are born of the Spirit: "so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Do you still hold that this is not what the text is saying?

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Originally Posted by Previously, I

2) Would you agree, given verse eight, that being born of the Spirit is not something we control or can accurately predict?

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Originally Posted by Lightknight

2 answer No, Jesus is refering to the difference of the physical in contrast to the spirit. We do not physically see the spirit. But it is still there.

Lightknight · 02-04-2004, 07:59 PM

crap, I thought I posted a long response to this quite awhile ago. It must not have been sent. (will reply shortly.... again)

Lightknight · 02-04-2004, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaletPol

I agree with you here. We are given new life by the Spirit.

Um... In all this, you have yet to really respond to what I have said concerning verse eight, and what you have said is a strong indication to me that I really did not misunderstand you. What you are saying seems to me to be simply that we cannot see the Spirit. I believe that is true, but more than that is true:

[8]"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

John 3:8 (NAS)

This verse is not simply saying that we cannot see the Spirit. It says that the Spirit goes where it wishes and, although we "hear the sound of it" (see its work), we "do not know where it comes from and where it is going" to give people this new life of which we speak ("so is everyone who is born of the Spirit"). This seems to me to be very clearly saying that

We do not control where the Spirit blows: "The wind blows where it wishes..."
We can see the fruit that the Spirit produces: "...you hear the sound of it..."
We cannot predict where the Spirit will blow: "...[you] do not know where it comes from and where it is going..."
Where the Spirit "blows," there is where people are born of the Spirit: "so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Do you still hold that this is not what the text is saying?

Ok, this is the concise version of what was once a long well stated post.

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"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going;

Ok, this is refering to the next subject. which is the people who are born of the spirit.

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so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

This is not refering to the Spirit itself. People of the Spirit (Myself, and I assume you, along with all other Christians). Now, we do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. In other words, we move in ways that are not expected by the physical world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I

example:
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Now, why does the world not understand what we are doing and who we are taking our orders from? Because they are dead spiritually and cannot see with what they do not have. Does this mean that they can not believe in Heaven? By no means at all. Look at Satanists, many of them believe in Heaven and Hell and all that is spiritual (they just serve the wrong side).

Quote:

Originally Posted by I

example of the flesh not being able to understand the spirit:1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

this verse means that we will be ready because we are now of the day (life) because of our spirits being alive through Christ. That way we will not be caught off guard, while the people who are spiritually dead will be.

Lightknight · 02-09-2004, 09:37 PM

Are you around Chalet? Thinking or waiting or what?

ChaletPol · 02-09-2004, 11:59 PM

I'm sorry. I was gone for the weekend, and my classes are catching up with me. I'm still around. I probably won't get around to replying until next week, though.

ChaletPol · 02-25-2004, 01:20 PM

[1] Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. [2] This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him." [3] Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." [4] Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" [5] Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' [8] The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

John 3:1-8 (ESV)

[1] Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. [2] He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."

[3] In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

[4] "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

[5] Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. [6] Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. [7] You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' [8] The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

John 3:1-8 (NIV)

[1] After dark one evening, a Jewish religious leader named Nicodemus, a Pharisee, [2] came to speak with Jesus. "Teacher," he said, "we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miraculous signs are proof enough that God is with you."

[3] Jesus replied, "I assure you, unless you are born again, you can never see the Kingdom of God."

[4] "What do you mean?" exclaimed Nicodemus. "How can an old man go back into his mother's womb and be born again?"

[5] Jesus replied, "The truth is, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. [6] Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives new life from heaven. [7] So don't be surprised at my statement that you must be born again. [8] Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit."

John 3:1-8 (NLT)

ChaletPol · 02-25-2004, 01:37 PM

[8] "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

John 3:8 (ESV)

[8] "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

John 3:8 (NIV)

[8] "Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit."

John 3:8 (NLT)

(ALL EMPHASES MINE)

ChaletPol · 02-25-2004, 01:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Lightknight

Quote:

"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going;

Ok, this is refering to the next subject.

I agree.

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Originally Posted by Lightknight

which is the people who are born of the spirit.

I disagree.

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Originally Posted by Lightknight

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so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

This is not refering to the Spirit itself.

I agree... partly...

Lightknight · 02-25-2004, 02:25 PM

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Originally Posted by ChaletPol

I agree.

I disagree.

I agree... partly...

Well, the subject was the one that I said wasn't refering to the Spirit but people born of the Spirit. Which actually directly says what you disagree with.

ChaletPol · 02-25-2004, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightknight

Now, we do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. In other words, we move in ways that are not expected by the physical world.

This might be a fitting analysis of 1 Corinthians 2, but I don't think it fits with the text at hand. Because it was so long ago, I'm putting up my understanding of the flow of this passage again. Nicodemus just came to Jesus by night, apparently seeking more information from Him because he has been impressed by the signs and wonders that Christ has been doing. The signs and wonders are obviously a testimony to the fact that the kingdom of God is at hand, but only Nicodemus comes searching for more information. Why is it that Nicodemus is the only "ruler of the Jews" seeking to learn more from Jesus in this manner? I say it's because Nicodemus has been born again, and the others have not. This is strange, considering we're not just talking about the common people of Israel, but the teachers of the law, the scribes and the Pharisees. These were learned men who had a high standard of righteousness. It was so high, in fact, that they believed the Gentiles could never be a part of the kingdom of God. Nevertheless, when their own Messiah comes along, it seems like only one of their number decides to investigate, and he goes by night, which could be an indication that he fears being seen by the others. If I were Jesus, I would have been surprised that Nicodemus came by night and alone. Jesus does not miss a beat when Nicodemus approaches him: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." This surprises Nicodemus. He doesn't seem to understand the type of language Jesus is using. Actually, neither did I for a while, looking back on that discussion of baptismal justification. Consider this note from the Reformation (formerly New Geneva) Study Bible:

Quote:

3:5 born of water and the Spirit Some suggest that the "water" is the release of fluid that accompanies physical birth, but linguistic considerations point to understanding "water" and "Spirit" as referring to a single spiritual birth. Many interpreters understand "water" here as the water of baptism, but such a reference, before Christian baptism was instituted, wouoldl have been meaningless to Nicodemus. Others find a reference to John's baptism, but Jesus nowhere makes John's baptism a requirement for salvation. Probably the statement refers to Old Testament passages in which the terms "water" and "Spirit" are linked to express the pouring out of God's Spirit in the end times (Is. 32:15; 44:3; Ezek. 36:25-27). The presence of such rich Old Testament imagery accounts for Jesus' reproof of Nicodemus (v. 10): as a "teacher of Israel," he should have understood.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." The Jewish people had an alarming tendency to put their confidence in the flesh, did they not? They put their faith in their ethnic identity rather than in the covenantal graciousness of God. Jesus is here reminding Nicodemus that salvation does not rest in the flesh, but in the saving power of the Holy Spirit of God. Jesus admonishes Nicodemus, "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'" Salvation was never ultimately dependent upon being an Israelite, but upon God's saving power. The Israelites in general, and Nicodemus in particular, struggled with this, but Jesus says that God saves whom He wills: "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." Jesus is not saying that people who are born of the Spirit do strange and unpredictable things. He seems to be saying something about the Spirit. After all, the word for "wind" here is pneuma, which is the root for the word for "Spirit": pneumatos. He is not saying that the Spirit is invisible like the wind or ascribing any other general attribute to the Spirit. Rather, He describes a particular work that the Spirit does: being born from above or being born of the Spirit is undeniably a work of the Spirit, and it is to this work that the wind analogy refers:

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

John 3:8 (ESV, emphasis added)

Notice the presence of the "it." It is not there in the NAS, KJV, or NKJV, but, as I pointed out in this post, it is present in the NIV, ESV, and NLT. I don't hold the NLT or NIV in very high regard for doctrinal studies because of the translation method (see the attached chart), but the ESV is the most recent and perhaps most literal translation of the Bible we have. The Amplified Bible also agrees with the ESV:

[8]The wind blows (breathes) where it wills; and though you hear its sound, yet you neither know where it comes from nor where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

John 3:8 (Amplified Bible)

[9]Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?" [10] Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? [11] Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. [12] If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? [13] No one has ascended into heaven except him who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. [14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, [15] that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

John 3:9-15 (ESV)

Nicodemus is confused by this statement. Aren't the Jews all saved automatically? Nicodemus probably came to see what the Messiah's plan for conquering the heathen Gentiles was. Instead, he is told that not all of the Israelites are saved, and, when Nicodemus shows his confusion, Jesus reinforces this statement rather than retracting it, saying that He has come down from heaven, and it is from there His knowledge comes. Furthermore, He teaches this teacher about the true purpose of the Son of Man: He has come, not to drive out the Gentiles in a radical crusade, which the Jews believed He was going to do (as you so rightly taught me yourself in your history lesson), but to be driven out Himself by those who were supposed to be His own people and to bring in all who believe in Him, even the Gentiles. He came to be lifted up as the serpent in the wilderness was so that all who will believe will have eternal life:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
[17] "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

John 3:16-18 (ESV)

Those who believe will have eternal life. Those who are Jewish may or may not have eternal life. Those who are Gentiles may or may not have eternal life. The Messiah did not come to condemn the Gentiles or the Jews. The sign of the covenant has never ultimately been the heritage or condition of the flesh, but the condition of the heart. Those who believe will be saved. Those who do not believe are condemned. Who will believe? Well, not the world, apparently:

[19] "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. [20] For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."

John 3:19-20 (ESV)

The light comes into the world, and the people of the world reject the light because their deeds are evil. Wicked people do wicked things and don't want to admit it or have their deeds exposed, so the hide. They want no part of the kingdom of God. Will no one be saved then?

[21] "But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God."

John 3:21 (ESV)

Those who come to the light will be saved, but no one will come to the light except those whose deeds are carried out in God. I'll let you try to figure out what this means for yourself.

If you present me with an alternative understanding of this passage that does the whole of it and the rest of scripture justice, I shall return to this debate immediately. You have yet to present a coherent understanding of this passage, however, so I think I shall leave this thread with 1 Corinthians 2:

[1] And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. [2] For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. [3] And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, [4] and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, [5] that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

[6] Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. [7] But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. [8] None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. [9] But, as it is written,

"What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him"—

[10] these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. [11] For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. [13] And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

[14] The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. [15] The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. [16] "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Cor. 2:1-16 (ESV)

Lightknight · 02-25-2004, 09:25 PM

Ok, just so that I don't have to go back through and repeat every counter that I've said again. Just answer my post. Don't through in extra stuff or repeat stuff since you and I are the only ones debating here.

Edit: to make things easier for you.

Lightknight · 03-20-2004, 11:13 AM

Your arguement seems to be that Jesus is saying that it is impossible to see (as in to visibly see) the things of Heaven if you aren't born of the spirit. Well, Jesus clarifies what he means with his next statement.

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

he means enter. He doesn't mean see. So my explanation must be correct. Because you can't derive to see from to enter. Understand?

Here is another example of someone who isn't born of the spirit seeing Jesus' miracles for what they are.

Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
(he's talking to the pharisees and such here. A Calvinist might argue that Jesus is saying that they are not predestined to believe but then comes this next part)
Jhn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.
(he is talking to the pharisees again. Telling these same people that he said are not of his flock to believe him for his works if they will not believe his words. If they are not predestined to be saved then why would he tell them to believe? Obviously being part of his flock is something that you become. Not something that you already are. So being born of the Spirit isn't some form of predestined thing. It happens when you get saved.

Jhn 10:41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
Jhn 10:42 And many believed on him there. Note that here, the people that did not hear his voice because they were not of his flock believed because of Jesus' works. Thus they became his flock. I'm sure that after that moment they heard his voice.