[Kelly]

Growing up I always heard the phrase "Spare the rod, spoil the child..." (Proverbs 13:24) and it always seemed to be in context to spanking. I recently heard another theory on it that I thought was MUCH more true and appropriate, so I thought I would share it for discussion. (PLEASE - let's not make this a heated debate about spanking, etc. - I'm just hoping for a good discussion. )

Anyway, the theory I heard recently was that the "rod" referred to in that passage is really intended to represent a shepherd's staff. In this sense, it would be taken to mean that parents are to guide and protect their children just as a shepherd guides and protects his sheep. When sheep go astray, the shepherd uses his staff to gently bring them back into the fold - such as parents should do when their children stray. Jesus is also the same way - he doesn't harshly reprimand us for our actions, he gently brings us back to him when we have lost our way and turn back to him.

I really like the way the passage was explained that way. It was really enlightening to me.

What do you guys think??

[Role Modlin]

Originally Posted by Kelly

Growing up I always heard the phrase "Spare the rod, spoil the child..." (Proverbs 13:24) and it always seemed to be in context to spanking. I recently heard another theory on it that I thought was MUCH more true and appropriate, so I thought I would share it for discussion. (PLEASE - let's not make this a heated debate about spanking, etc. - I'm just hoping for a good discussion. )

Anyway, the theory I heard recently was that the "rod" referred to in that passage is really intended to represent a shepherd's staff. In this sense, it would be taken to mean that parents are to guide and protect their children just as a shepherd guides and protects his sheep. When sheep go astray, the shepherd uses his staff to gently bring them back into the fold - such as parents should do when their children stray. Jesus is also the same way - he doesn't harshly reprimand us for our actions, he gently brings us back to him when we have lost our way and turn back to him.

I really like the way the passage was explained that way. It was really enlightening to me.

What do you guys think??

I've heard it used that way too. Keep in mind, however, that the second half of that verse says that we will discpline them though. Ephesians tells us to not provoke our children either, so it is a fine line.

[Kelly]

Oh, I most definitely agree that we should discipline our children. They must be taught right from wrong, etc. However, I think that the form of discipline should rely heavily on what each individual child responds to. For example, some children require just a stern look and they know they have done wrong and are apologetic, etc. - other children require different forms of discipline according to their own temperments and demeanors. Did I just make any sense??

Peace,
Kelly

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by Kelly

Oh, I most definitely agree that we should discipline our children. They must be taught right from wrong, etc. However, I think that the form of discipline should rely heavily on what each individual child responds to. For example, some children require just a stern look and they know they have done wrong and are apologetic, etc. - other children require different forms of discipline according to their own temperments and demeanors. Did I just make any sense??

Peace,
Kelly

That makes a lot of sense to me. Disicpline has to be tailored for each kid.

[God's Jedi]

This is a question I was thinking on the other day. I was sitting in Target eating some fries, and I saw a mother hit her child repeatedly in the face with her purse strap. That got me thinking for days about the real meaning of that phrase. I came to the conclusion that it was more of a metaphor than a strict rule. Children need to be disciplined, but I don't believe they need to be beaten.

Originally Posted by Kelly

For example, some children require just a stern look and they know they have done wrong and are apologetic, etc. - other children require different forms of discipline according to their own temperments and demeanors.

That's basically what I came up with.

[Skeeter]

Well, I know that I needed spanking as a kid. I did some stupid things and needed that kind of discipline. As far as I know, there haven't been any negative psychological effects...

But what you're saying here does make some sense. Of course, the Bible refers to the rod and the staff, of which shepherds carried around both. The rod was a means of defending the sheep and was basically used to hit things, while the staff was to gather and comfort the sheep. So keep that in mind when defining this verse. The rod might not be referring to the staff but to the rod as a physical means of discipline.

[Jeffrey]

I was raised with spanking...specifically a plastic spanking spoon. Timeouts were of course in effect, spanking wasn't the immediate punishment. But when I did cross the line (I was generally known as an obedient kid...back then ), the spanking spoon would come out. I can't recall when the spanking ending...I believe six years old.

I hold no ill will now, or even really then. None of my unpleasant memories of childhood have anything to do with physical punishment. As someone raised with it by two Christian parents (who were raised by non-believers who employed belts, eek), I advocate it, and know that it kept me in line before I was mature enough to live righteously on my own volition. It also reinforced to my young mind the concepts of authority, and the respect due to my parents. Even in my senior year when physically I could have easily whupped both my father and mother, those lessons stayed. Had I been raised without a strong form of punishment (spanking may not be appropiate for every kid), my stunted growth may have taken me elsewhere.

When my parents spanked me, they always made clear the specific reasons I was being spanked and what lines I had crossed to defy earlier opportunites of reconciliaton and rebuff their authority. I don't remember my parents seeming to enjoy it, since they presented it as their duty in order to teach me lessons on how to live Godly and respect them for my general growth and safety.

I know one family in which the parents never spanked their kids or even employed timeouts, and instead had them memorize Bible verses. These kids are now in middle school/high school and are as disobedient as they were when I was their AWANA leader. They're exceptionally bright, so they basically memorized verses no problem and went on their merry way. And now their parents are reaping the consequences of two bright kids with little respect for authority. But their father still advocates his way as the best way.

I think it's great to incorporate the Word into ALL areas of child-rearing. But be careful!

That's my two cents as a child, not a parent.

[Elizabeth]

Originally Posted by Starboard Wake

I know one family in which the parents never spanked their kids or even employed timeouts, and instead had them memorize Bible verses. These kids are now in middle school/high school and are as disobedient as they were when I was their AWANA leader. They're exceptionally bright, so they basically memorized verses no problem and went on their merry way. And now their parents are reaping the consequences of two bright kids with little respect for authority. But their father still advocates his way as the best way.

I think it's great to incorporate the Word into ALL areas of child-rearing. But be careful!

That's my two cents as a child, not a parent.

I don't think the Bible should be used for punishing. You're supposed to not like punishment, and I wouldn't want my kids hating the Bible...

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth

I don't think the Bible should be used for punishing. You're supposed to not like punishment, and I wouldn't want my kids hating the Bible...

haha! I was waiting for someone to say that...I agree, associating a negative correlation with the Word can be damaging. I do think spanking/punishment is a good time for reinforcing enumerated values, however.

[Travis]

Spanking was the only punishment that worked with me when I was little...

[Drew Peterson]

In Psalm 23, David says: "Your ROD and staff, they comfort me". I don't think getting beat with a rod is not the most comforting thing out there, neither do I think that is what David meant. Some people say that the Proverbs verse means spanking your kid with a rod, and Psalm 23 means guiding with a rod. But how do we know that that is true?
Since I am still a kid, I am biased, naturally. But I think that if your young child is openly defiant, or about to do something dangerous (such as sticking their finger in an electrical outlet), then corporal punishment is a good idea.

My parents still spank me now, and I am 15. I really don't like it at all. Naturally, on this matter I am biased. But I really believe that if you want your older kid/teen to have at least some shred of self esteem, you should not spank them. There have been countless times that I have cut myself and injured myself because I hated the way I felt (inside) after I was walloped. I have no fear anymore, when I am about to be punished. Just anger.

My mom says that 'back in the day' kids were whipped by their parents. But what makes the way parents treated their kids in 'the day' right?
Those are my thoughts on the matter. Sorry for jumping back and forth and ranting and raving. Any comments?

[SCCdcTFreak]

I was spanked SO many times when I was little that it's not even funny. My parents whipped me up one side of the house and down the other. Why? Because that's the only way that they go through to me about wrong and right. The whippings stopped once I was in Jr. High, but then the groundings started. My mom knew how to get me where it counted, too -- she would ground me from baseball -- which was my life at the time. So, I was not even allowed to look IN THE PAPER FOR THE SCORE TO THE GAMES. It was harsh. One time a grounding kept me from being allowed to try out for the freshman basketball team. But, I now consider myself a very well-raised and nice young man with a good head on my shoulders. Of course, I was a little brat when I was a kid, but my parents knew how to get through to me.

My parents also always told me -- I'm not spanking you because I'm mad at you -- I'm spanking you because what you did was wrong and there are consequences for doing wrong. They also always followed it up by hugging me and kissing me and letting me know that they did not like to spank me. That stuck with me all the way through knowing that my spankings were not from someone who just loves to seet their kids writhe in pain and scream mercilessly, but from someone who wanted me to know that it was not right what I'd done.

So, yes, I will spank my kids, but never out of anger -- if I'm angry, then I'll tell them to go to their room and have some "cool off" time -- not so much for them, but really for me to calm down. Then, I will explain to them that I'm spanking them as the consequence from what they've done and not because I'm mad at them. I will even excercise mercy sometimes to illustrate that God shows us mercy. And after spanking, I will of course follow up with showering them with love and letting them know how much they really do mean to me and re-iterate about how for doing wrong, there must be punishment.

I thank my parents for the way they raised me -- I tell them that all the time. Like I said, just mindlessly beating your kids is not the way to go about it, but if done right, it can be very effective.

Well, that's my two cents.

In Him,
† <>< Stephen

[Ted Logan]

Originally Posted by Kelly

Growing up I always heard the phrase "Spare the rod, spoil the child..." (Proverbs 13:24) and it always seemed to be in context to spanking. I recently heard another theory on it that I thought was MUCH more true and appropriate, so I thought I would share it for discussion. (PLEASE - let's not make this a heated debate about spanking, etc. - I'm just hoping for a good discussion. )

Anyway, the theory I heard recently was that the "rod" referred to in that passage is really intended to represent a shepherd's staff. In this sense, it would be taken to mean that parents are to guide and protect their children just as a shepherd guides and protects his sheep. When sheep go astray, the shepherd uses his staff to gently bring them back into the fold - such as parents should do when their children stray. Jesus is also the same way - he doesn't harshly reprimand us for our actions, he gently brings us back to him when we have lost our way and turn back to him.

I really like the way the passage was explained that way. It was really enlightening to me.

What do you guys think??

Well, I think that what you were told was fairly incomplete. The shepherd's crook is used for many things, among them the breaking of dangerously rebellious sheeps' legs. Our very own Benj Pocta wrote an article at Razormouth that might be useful. The poignant excerpt:

Originally Posted by Benj Pocta

This past summer, I heard a fascinating explanation the eighth verse of Psalm 51 in relationship to ancient shepherding practices. It is said shepherds used to break a leg bone of wandering sheep, bind up the broken leg, and carry these sheep close, on the shepherd's shoulders. As the bones mended, a relationship and comfort between the shepherd and the sheep would be built, making the sheep less likely to wander in the future, keeping the sheep close to the shepherd. David, the writer of this Psalm, had a shepherding background and would be literate of the practices of the time.

What an amazing analogy this is for the discipline of God. God breaks our bones as we wander anywhere but to Him (this is true in David’s case, looking at the context of this Psalm, and our case), and this is a most certainly painful experience. As we face the reality of our pain, we are brought to a realization of our need for the shepherd (and, of course, immediately this brings to mind the Good Shepherd). The shepherd nurses us back to health and we grow to know and love the shepherd, understanding the necessity of the pain. We don’t want to wander any longer, having a deeper relationship with our shepherd, we know our own limitations and dependencies, and we know the danger of wandering from the shepherd’s care. We want to stay close to Him, our Shepherd.

You see, the shepherd's "rod" is used to discipline, sometimes to the point that it seems at first to be harm to the sheep.

In other words, Kelly, I'm not sure how far you want to take this analogy.

Additionally, I was spanked when necessary, when I was a child, and I am the better for it. I would also like to say that my parents were very kind, and never spanked me in anger. They always explained exactly why I was getting spanked, and I understood it. It wasn't about blind obedience; it was about training a child the way to adulthood.

[Jeffrey]

I think a great point has been raised here that parents must be sure to think clearly and not border on abuse.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Starboard Wake

I think a great point has been raised here that parents must be sure to think clearly and not border on abuse.

Absolutely!!

I was spanked as a child and as an adolescent and, trust me, it was necessary and was never EVER done out of anger, but rather out of love and nurturing. I know that sounds kind of contrary, but it's true because if my mom didn't love me and didn't care how I was raised, she would never have disciplined me in any shape, form or fashion.

I don't know where I stand on spanking as a parent though. I guess we'll just wait and see what the times bring.

Peace,
Kelly