[+Donny]

explain the following verses about free will

Romans 3:22
Romans 10:13
John 6:54
John 6:40
John 6:37
John 6:51
John 10:9

[nate95366]

Donny,

It seems that you've made your mind up about what those verses are about already.....so you kinda asked a loaded question. What if I'd like to try and show you they're not about free will?

Nate

[Luke]

Originally posted by Donny
explain the following verses about free will

Romans 3:22
Romans 10:13
John 6:54
John 6:40
John 6:37
John 6:51
John 10:9

I'll hit this tomorrow or Saturday.

[+Donny]

actually, im still VERY confused about this issue, and please, go ahead

Well I guess nobody has yet explained to you that "whosoever will" presents no problem to the Calvinist. Because the Calvinist believes in the total depravity of man (that is that no man can turn himself to God on his own accord), then whosoever WON'T! Simply put no one can turn to God in repentance unless the Spirit causes that person to be able to. ie. John 6:44.

The Calvinist will say "whosoever will" just like anyone else. He just realizes the process by which people are brought to the point where they "will."

Brent
heb1228@aol.com

[+Donny]

so when it says whosoever shall COME to me, it means, whosoever is forced by the holy spirit? i believe the spirit aids, not forces

[Sola Gratia]

Originally posted by Donny
so when it says whosoever shall COME to me, it means, whosoever is forced by the holy spirit? i believe the spirit aids, not forces

When someone is called by God they do not come "kicking and screaming" against their will. By God's grace alone they are spiritualy enlightened so that they are able to receive the things of God.

1 Cor. 2: 12;

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God."

Eph. 1:17-18, Acts 26:18


Their hearts of stone are changed to hearts of flesh and their wills enabled to good so that when they are drawn to Christ they come willingly and freely.

Ezk. 36:26-27;

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."

Phil. 2:13;

"for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

John 6:44;

"No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Rom. 6:16-18;

"Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as aslave for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience, resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

[MrCrabby]

I don't think you guys see how close we are to agreeing!

I think we actually believe the same things, we just have to get past the whole "Calvinism vs. Arminism" thing.

I don't count myself as either, wanna know why?
Cause i don't follow the veiws and teachings of a man!
I'd rather be a CHRISTIAN than a Calvanist!

Just some thoughts,
mark

[Sola Gratia]

Originally posted by GzusPhreek2k
I don't think you guys see how close we are to agreeing!

I think we actually believe the same things, we just have to get past the whole "Calvinism vs. Arminism" thing.

I don't count myself as either, wanna know why?
Cause i don't follow the veiws and teachings of a man!
I'd rather be a CHRISTIAN than a Calvanist!

Just some thoughts,
mark

Personaly I dislike the title Calvinist because people often think, as you do, that it is the "teachings of a man" when in fact it is not something Calvin thought up but is deeply rooted in Scripture; that Calvin held and defended these views does not make it his gospel.

I would agree with Charles Spurgeon when he said, "I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowdays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel, and nothing else... If any man should ask me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer- I wish to be called nothing but a Christian;"

[trhoke]

Originally posted by Donny
explain the following verses about free will

Romans 3:22
Romans 10:13
John 6:54
John 6:40
John 6:37
John 6:51
John 10:9

These verses do not contradict the calvanist teaching. They say that whoever comes to Christ will be saved, they do not say that all men are capable of coming to Christ, and in light of Scripture (e.g. Solo Gratia's second post), we realize that only those who are made alive in Christ (Eph. 2:5) are those who will come to Him.

It says in Romans 3:10-12 that no man seeks God, or righteousness, etc... not even one!

"⁶For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, ⁷because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so." (Romans 8:6-7).

This is not to say that man does not make choices, but rather those choices are decided by his will, and the will in the case of the sinner is enslaved to sin (Romans 6:16; 8:5-8; Ephesians 2:1-4). He is hostile to God, will not subject himself to God, nor can he.

It's only when God makes us alive to Him (Eph. 2:5), makes us new creations in Christ, removes that old heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh (Ez. 36:26-27), that we can then respond by believing in Him.

Therefore, those who will answer the call in those verses are those God has drawn to Himself, and made alive in Him.

[ChrisHarbison]

I would agree with Charles Spurgeon when he said, "I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowdays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the Gospel, and nothing else... If any man should ask me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer- I wish to be called nothing but a Christian;"

I couldn't agree more! Calvinism is the gospel. Americans are just too afraid to embrace what God's word says because it makes us realize that this whole thing called life is actually...you ready...NOT ABOUT US, BUT ABOUT GOD. To say we can actually freely choose whatever regardless of what God wants is absurd. Let's just make man sovereign and forget about God.

Ok, I'm about to tell you what your verses mean...one more sec...

The Calvinist will say "whosoever will" just like anyone else. He just realizes the process by which people are brought to the point where they "will."

EXACTLY!!! I know Luke's gone over this over and over and over again on the Freewill thread, so I'm not gonna go into it again.

Ok, now, here's what each of your verses say, and how they do not prove freewill, in fact, some of them prove election .

John 6:37 - "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

This is NOT talking about "freewill" but election, unconditional election at that. All who come to me is exactly right, but read the first half of the verse, all that the Father GIVES. Whom does the Father give Christ? The elect!

John 6:40 - "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Ok, what was he talking about just 3 verses prior to this, the elect. Who beholds the son and believes in Him, the elect, those whom God chose (John 15:16). This is exactly right, for indeed it is not God's will for any of his redeemed to perish (2 Pet. 3:9). And again, this verse is about election, not "free"will.

John 6:51,54, 10:9; Rom. 3:22, 10:13 - again, "whoever will"...we've already discussed it so I'll save my fingers.

Brent (Unregistered) said it quite plainly, but I'll reiterate. "Whoever will" means exactly that, but "whoever can" is a different story. Only those sovereignly called by God truly can, and since God's "gifts and call are irrevocable" (Rom. 11:29), those who "can", will.

[DaveJes1979]

Here is some more from your friend and mine, Charles Spurgeon.

"I do not serve the god of the Arminians at all; I have nothing to do with
him, and I do not bow down before the Baal they have set up; he is not my
God, nor shall he ever be; I fear him not, nor tremble at his presence...The
God that saith today and denieth tomorrow, that justifieth today and
condemns the next...is no relation to my God in the least degree. He may be
a relation of Ashtaroth or Baal, but Jehovah never was or can be his name."

"[I]f it was Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has he been
disappointed, for we have His own testimony that there is a lake which
burneth with fore and brimstone, and into that pit of woe have been cast
some of the very persons who, according to the theory of universal
redemption, were bought with His blood.11
He has punished Christ, why should He punish twice for one offence? Christ
has died for all His people's sins, and if thou art in the covenant, thou
art one of Christ's people. ****ed thou canst not be. Suffer for thy sins
thou canst not. Until God can be unjust, and demand two payments for one
debt, He cannot destroy the soul for whom Jesus died."

[T]here is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we
preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it
Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we
can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without
works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of
grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable,
conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless
we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and
chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend
a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the
children of God to be burned in the fires of ****ation.

[Peter]

well, if Charles Spurgeon said it then it must be true. How could so many have got it wrong!

One more thing, this 4 star "ation" thing sounds pretty bad

[Luke]

If you type the word d-a-m-n on this board, it stars it out automatically. But that is what Spurgeon wrote...

[+Donny]

okay, you answered a few, but you havent been able to answer how it says that it is God's will that everyone come to him, yet he only chooses some? and im not saying we come kicking and screaming, im saying that we are still forced, the elect have NO CHOICE