[Miscellaneous]

"[Credo Baptists] go on to argue that since many infants who are baptized do not profess genuine faith later in life -- and, in fact, demonstrate via ungodly lives that they are indeed not the children of God -- clearly the sign of baptism should not be administered to the children of believers before they come to an age of understanding." (Robert Booth, Children of the Promise, p.113)

While reading the book last night I came upon this, and I wanted to share my thoughts on the subject. This is also influenced by the thread on whether or not children go to heaven. I'm typing them (my thoughts) as I go, so please bear with me.

I believe the question asked "can children have a saving knowledge of God?" is influenced by the question "can children be regenerate?".

Also, it should be noted that my goal is not to make the longest thread with the smallest content. That seems to be my trend, hahaha!!! Sorry.

Onto my thoughts: Does regeneration entail a knowledge and understanding of the relationship with the Savior? It would seem it does. Paul argues of regeneration bringing us unto true knowledge. As regenerate man, we have the true knowledge of God. Not a perverted knowledge that the unbeliever has, but a knowledge brought upon us by God. A knowledge of the heart. (cf 1Cor 1:5, 1Cor 8:7). A knowledge, or acknowledgement, of our creature relationship with the creator (cf. Rom 1:28). And that with regeneration comes a new heart that enables us to recognize and acknowledge this (cf. Jer. 24:7, Jer. 31:33, Jer. 32:39, Acts 16:14, Heb. 8:10, Heb. 10:16).

The problem I see is that too many people assume that children because they are too young, cannot know God and understand Him. This seems to me to be completely unbiblical. What's worse than this, is the fact that many people who deny that children are too young to know God, affirm that God does regenerate infants. However, to say that God regenerates someone, and that they don't understand Him, seems to me to not fit the fill with what God claims regeneration does. God claims that regeneration does bring the regenerate to this acknowledgement and understanding of God. Why then do we so often assume that children are omitted from these words of God? Especially, when God Himself seems to not make the exception.

The problem lies in the fact that those claiming that children are too young to understand God, presuppose that God is the same sort of being with the same sort of relationship as all other beings. Not even to mention that regenerate infants do have the same Holy Spirit inside them. The God of Christianity makes no such claim that he is the same sort of being as others are, and has the same relationship to man. He does claim to sustain all things through Himself. He does also claim that we know things by looking to Him who knows all things (Psalm 36:9). He does claim that His relationship with man is such that all men know Him, but supress the knowledge (Rom. 1:18ff).

If we conclude that all men know God, regenerate and unregenerate alike. That unregenerate men suppress the knowledge of God, unregenerate infants do so too, and that regenerate men acknowledge their creature/Creator relationship with God, why don't we conclude that regenerate infants do so too? Scriptures seems to inform us that regenerate men acknowledge and understand this relationship. However, we tell ourselves that the same cannot be true, that infants cannot understand this. This is in principle to say that God does not, and further cannot regenerate infants. And then by presupposing that infants cannot have a knowledge of God, the circularity hits the fan. The contraBiblical circularity at that. We are not to suppose that since infants cannot have a true knowledge of a car, or a house, or a person, that he cannot have a true knowledge of God. To say that requires God's relationship with the infant to be somewhat of the same character of the relationship with the other things mentioned. This is not the case, as the Bible points out. God's relationship is much "closer."

Thoughts on my thoughts? This started out as a paedo baptism thread, but I wouldn't be able to continue it since I'm leaving tomorrow morning until Sunday. So I changed it a bit. Sorry if it's choppy.

Brian

[Chico]

how do you suggest that we distinguish these regenerate and unregenerate infants?

chris

[Miscellaneous]

I don't think we can. I wasn't arguing for paedo baptism, or anything. Just that that particular passage in the book made me think about if regenerate infants can and do know God. That passage doesn't even do justice to the credo position.

I was just making a claim that regenerate infants do know and understand God. That was my whole point : | Nothing really to do with discerning those infants from the nonregenerate, or anything like that.

Brian

[Chico]

Originally Posted by Miscellaneous

I don't think we can. I wasn't arguing for paedo baptism, or anything. Just that that particular passage in the book made me think about if regenerate infants can and do know God. That passage doesn't even do justice to the credo position.

I was just making a claim that regenerate infants do know and understand God. That was my whole point : | Nothing really to do with discerning those infants from the nonregenerate, or anything like that.

Brian

oh, ok. but i think i disagree. seeing as i am a Calvanist, and i think you are too, i believe that a child is chosen for salvation before they are born. that they are predestined by God's supreme plan for this. but i think there is a big difference between being predestined for regeneration, and being regenerative.

nothing can change that i am born, already being made for either destruction, or for glory. but when i actually am saved differs for many people. it doesn't happen at some certain point in time. therefore, by what you are saying, it seems that if we are predestined for salvation, that there is never a time we do not know God. but then we wouldn't need saving. so even as adults, there is a time we don't know God, until God regenerates us. so if we can't know God until He does that, how can an infant truely know God?

chris

[Miscellaneous]

No, you misunderstand me. I'm talking about if God regenerates infants. Does he only regenerate people as adults, or does he regenerate them as infants too. I'm talking that the true knowledge of God comes at the point of regeneration, and if he chooses to regenerate some at 1 month old, or whenever, along with regeneration comes the knowledge of Him, and the acknowledgment of the Creator/creature distinction.

I'm saying that if God predestines a person for salvation, and he decides to regenerate them at 16 years old, then at that time, they are endowed with a new heart and the knowledge of God. However, if he chooses to regenerate a person at 1 month old, then at that time they are endowed with a new heart and the knowledge of God.

Maybe I made this clear? Or should I have typed more in this post?

edit: I posted this because it seems that many people are under the impression that infants cannot be "believers." Even if God chooses to regenerate them, and does so regenerate them as infants, they still are incapable of believing in God. I'm saying that if God regenerates anyone, he does so unto knowledge, even if the person is an infant. I'm not claiming that all are regenerated at birth, or infancy, but that if some are, then they do so believe, and are brought to the true knowledge of God.

Let me restate it another way. If a child dies at 2 months old, does the child go to heaven? Well, that would depend on if the child was regenerate or not. If the child was regenerated at some point, then he would go to heaven. In other words, if the child was a believer then he would go to heaven. Some say that children cannot go to heaven becuase they are too young to believe. I was arguing against that. Some say that children that are regenerate go to heaven, but that doesn't entail that they were able to believe. I was arguing against this too.

I was not, however, saying that those predestined for salvation were regenerated at birth. I was saying that they are regenerated at different times, and that it's quite possible that some are regenerated at infancy or even birth, and that if they were, then that entails that they believe.

[Luke]

I would agree that infants can have faith; I don't think I agree that infants can believe, because it seems belief presupposes being able to cognantly understand in what one is believing. Of course God could make this happen, but I'm not convinced He does.

Grace & Peace
Luke

[Chrysostom]

John the Baptist was regenerate in the womb. This demonstrates that it must be possible. He kicked in recognition of the Christ, if I'm remembering correctly. This demonstrates that a child can have some sort of "faith."

[Luke]

Agreed, but I'm not sure if that entails that he believed. I don't think of the two as the same. Of course, I could be wrong on that point.

Grace & Peace
Luke

[Chico]

i understand your point now. thanks for being patient with an idiot.

chris

[Miscellaneous]

Hehe, we can talk about this this week, Luke!

[vistor]

Psalm 22
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by vistor

Psalm 22
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

I think that serves as an effective counterexample.

Grace & Peace
Luke

[marsgoat7]

Originally Posted by vistor

Psalm 22
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.

very good.

[nolidad]

I would agree that infants can have faith; I don't think I agree that infants can believe, because it seems belief presupposes being able to cognantly understand in what one is believing. Of course God could make this happen, but I'm not convinced He does.

Though Luke and I are gougiong each others eys out (figuratively of course) on another thread dealing with this. I would tend to agree with him here.

The Bible is not at all specific about infants. The formula for salvation for every human is very specific, but can a baby exercise saving faith? The best I can come up with after 30 years of study is a firm "maybe". I have been roasted by beleiving pro life groups on this but the best I can give is Romans 9--"God will have mercy, on whom He will have mercy...."

We just cannot give very definitive answers here. There has been much misapplication of scripture to try to justify infant salvation but again the Bible is near silent on the issue of infants specically.

[Nomes]

Originally Posted by Chico

how do you suggest that we distinguish these regenerate and unregenerate infants?

chris

Not that I ever enter into this debate - but how do you suggest that we distinguish these regenerate and unregenerate people?

Yes - Salvation may be evident through a display of good works etc, but this is not always the case.

Luke 16
14The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.

Therefore, how do you tell outwardly for sure if anyone is saved....?
Let alone infants - if 'tis possible