[Tup]

Hear me out, If satan fell from grace, would he not have to have a free will because God would not have willingly created him if it was his sole purpose for him to fal and send a bunch of people to hell. I havent thought about the question much, just enough to get more questions.

[PraisingHim]

Originally Posted by Tup

Hear me out, If satan fell from grace, would he not have to have a free will because God would not have willingly created him if it was his sole purpose for him to fal and send a bunch of people to hell. I havent thought about the question much, just enough to get more questions.

Ezek. 28:15 "thou [Satan] wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

in verse 17 it says "...you [satan] corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor."

I would expound, but have several other things on here i need to do first.

peace ~ Clay

[DarylB]

Angles are free to be acute, obtuse or right. Infact, if you add all the angles up in a triangle you get 180°.

[Chrysostom]

1 Tim 5:21 refers to "the elect angels," suggesting that God's election and reprobation extends to both humans and angels.

[link2001]

Isaiah 14:12-14 talks about the fall of satan from heaven:
How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn![satan]
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
This sounds like satan had freewill when he decided, in his heart, to rise above God.

See also Rev. 12:7-9
And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he[satan] was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
By leading angels against in a war in heaven, the angels must have had a free choice to either follow Satan or Micheal.

[Travis]

Everyone is inserting "[satan]" all over the place. How do we know that Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezek. 28:15 refer to Satan?

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by Tup

because God would not have willingly created him if it was his sole purpose for him to fall and send a bunch of people to hell.

1. God's wisdom is greater than yours. How do you know He wouldn't have created Satan to fall?

2. Satan has never caused anyone to go to Hell. Satan has never sent anyone to Hell. People go to Hell because they sin against God and God sends them there.

[Tup]

Originally Posted by bobthecockroach

1. God's wisdom is greater than yours. How do you know He wouldn't have created Satan to fall?

2. Satan has never caused anyone to go to Hell. Satan has never sent anyone to Hell. People go to Hell because they sin against God and God sends them there.

if you look at it from an indirect point of view satan did "cause" people to go to hell. he influenced eve, who without satans influence would never have eaten the fruit. So in the end satan started the whole thing, even though people send themselves to hell.

[Shredcheddar]

"He started it"

Give me a break.. temptation is not what counts. It is sin which damns us. Jesus himself was tempted.

Besisdes.. how is that relevant?

[ChrisHarbison]

Originally Posted by DarylB

Angles are free to be acute, obtuse or right. Infact, if you add all the angles up in a triangle you get 180°.

HAHAHA...reps for this

[ChrisHarbison]

There is one major thing that no one has yet to address or consider. Why did Satan choose to fall? He was created perfect like Adam was as Ezek 28:15 points out. What caused Satan to sin. Let's assume for a moment that Satan and the angels do have freewill. We have to assume then that they had a sin nature to provoke them to choose evil over God . Regardless, whether they have freewill or not, they either a) had freewill and created with a sin nature, or b) as mustbenothing mentioned, election applies also to angels and the demons and Satan were created for the purpose of falling.

In both scenarios the same problem faces us as when we look at men: Man was created perfect and sinned. Were we destined to sin so Christ could be glorified on the cross? Were we giving a freewill and the ability to create a sin nature within ourselves that drives us to sin? Were we created with a sin nature and then just merely given the freewill to try to see if we can control it or not?

[PraisingHim]

Originally Posted by ChrisHarbison

There is one major thing that no one has yet to address or consider. Why did Satan choose to fall? He was created perfect like Adam was as Ezek 28:15 points out. What caused Satan to sin. Let's assume for a moment that Satan and the angels do have freewill. We have to assume then that they had a sin nature to provoke them to choose evil over God . Regardless, whether they have freewill or not, they either a) had freewill and created with a sin nature, or b) as mustbenothing mentioned, election applies also to angels and the demons and Satan were created for the purpose of falling.

where did ya get scenario 1 ? where does it say that without a sin nature, there is no want to become elevated? Satan wished to be lifted, be like the most high - and i for one don't see where God forced, or influenced a "sin nature" to those beings which were either perfect or very good.

~ Clay

[Chico]

Originally Posted by PraisingHim

where did ya get scenario 1 ? where does it say that without a sin nature, there is no want to become elevated? Satan wished to be lifted, be like the most high - and i for one don't see where God forced, or influenced a "sin nature" to those beings which were either perfect or very good.

~ Clay

i don't see how this is logical. if angels were truely perfect, then they wouldn't have fallen. we know that Christ was perfect on this earth, because we see the finished product of Christ, the man. we see that He didn't sin and resisted temptation. we know that angels are not perfect, because we have seen them fail. perfect things don't fail. if there isn't a sinful nature, which makes us non-perfect, then they are perfect.

why did Satan wish to be elevated? because there was something in his nature that made him want more than what he was. i don't see how you can attribute anything that isn't perfect to anything else but a sin nature.

chris

[Miscellaneous]

If Satan had an independent choice, or a free will, in the sense that you guys are using the term, then God's plan for man seems like a back up plan.

[Chico]

Originally Posted by Miscellaneous

If Satan had an independent choice, or a free will, in the sense that you guys are using the term, then God's plan for man seems like a back up plan.

i agree.

chris