Compatibility of predistination and freewill:

HeavenOnAStick · 12-22-2003, 12:29 AM

I have trouble understanding/believing the compatibility of predestination and freewill. Mainly, how one can be fully controlled by both God and himself? To me it seems that it has to be one or the other.

shakeybill · 12-22-2003, 06:18 AM

This is a cut and paste of an answer I gave on another thread. Hope it helps.

Well I would say that there are two things that need to be reconcilled:

First, The scripture is clear that God is absolutely soverign.
Second, It is obvious from life experience that we make, what certainly appear to be, free decisions.

I heard the late Dr. Walter Martin say that our free will and God's soverignty can be compared to a maze with a mouse running through it. Let's suppose The experimenter has the purpose of getting the mouse thru the maze by a specific route. Let's suppose the experimenter releases the mouse and watches the mouse's progress. Now let's suppose whenever the experimenter sees the mouse make a wrong turn he 'moves' part of the maze to guide the mouse back on track. Eventually the mouse gets thru the maze but the mouse 'thinks' he got thru by deciding all the lefts and rights on his own.

What do you think of this analogy?

In Christ, Bill

Wally · 12-22-2003, 10:39 AM

besides the fact that it doesn't have much scriptural backing, well, i'm still not thinking its that great.

it seems to contradict the passages that say God has everything go exactly as He wants it.

Miscellaneous · 12-22-2003, 11:05 AM

I Don't agree with your analogy shakey becuause it seems to be portraying man still having this libertarian free will, but God merely guiding what's going on outside.

I believe Christian compatibilism is man having a freewill because God soveriengly predestines and determines his actions.

HeavenOnAStick · 12-22-2003, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miscellaneous

I believe Christian compatibilism is man having a freewill because God soveriengly predestines and determines his actions.

Man can do what he wants (within boundaries) because God decided what he would do? Doesn't that contradict itself?

shakeybill · 12-22-2003, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miscellaneous

I Don't agree with your analogy shakey becuause it seems to be portraying man still having this libertarian free will, but God merely guiding what's going on outside.

I believe Christian compatibilism is man having a freewill because God soveriengly predestines and determines his actions.

My life experience is that we make decisions all the time that don't seem to have any guidance from God. Whether I go to McDonalds or Burger king for my morning cholesterol pill is one such example. Which magazine I bring into the bathroom to read would be another. Are you saying that even decisions this mundane are ordained by God?

BTW My mouse maze analogy is based on Proverbs 16:9.

Don't get me wrong. I am probably 75% come over to the dark side after reading all the various C/A threads here over the last few months.

In Christ, Bill

shakeybill · 12-22-2003, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

besides the fact that it doesn't have much scriptural backing, well, i'm still not thinking its that great.

it seems to contradict the passages that say God has everything go exactly as He wants it.

It's only an analogy. I believe that its scriptural basis is Proverbs 16:9.

There is no contradiction. God does have everything go as He wants. My analogy was saying that if we wander of the course of His will He alters various life factors and circumstances to get us back on track. Since we are the dumb mice we don't know that God has moved the wall of the maze in response to something we chose to do.

Unless you are saying that free will is an illusion there is a paradox between God's soverignty and our day to day choices that seem to be free.
The mouse maze was the best illustration I've heard that reconcilles the two.

Merry Christmas, Bill

Cadence · 12-22-2003, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeavenOnAStick

Man can do what he wants (within boundaries) because God decided what he would do? Doesn't that contradict itself?

You would think so, huh?

HeavenOnAStick · 12-22-2003, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadence

You would think so, huh?

Yes, I would... That's why I'm trying to understand how both of those could be compatible. I guess I'll just wait for your email!

Mike Graham · 12-22-2003, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeavenOnAStick

Man can do what he wants (within boundaries)

Can you jump up high and fly? We of course have limits.

If you mean that God's predestination of our decision limits the choices we are at liberty to make, then that is an incorrect view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeavenOnAStick

Man can do what he wants (within boundaries) because God decided what he would do? Doesn't that contradict itself?

I don't see why. God predestines a free choice. Please show me why this should be wrong. Please show me a reason why it would contradict itself.

Dr. Worm · 12-22-2003, 12:44 PM

The two are only compatible depending on your definition of free will. This is why, for clarification purposes, Calvinists will frequently say that we do not have free will (in the libertarian sense), but only free choice. That is, we are free to choose that which we desire the greatest.

The mouse analogy does not work. That analogy said that when we make a wrong turn, or get off track, away from God's plan, that He intervenes and puts us back. But we can not get off track. We can not get away from God's plan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakeybill

My life experience is that we make decisions all the time that don't seem to have any guidance from God. Whether I go to McDonalds or Burger king for my morning cholesterol pill is one such example. Which magazine I bring into the bathroom to read would be another. Are you saying that even decisions this mundane are ordained by God?

Yes.

Mike Graham · 12-22-2003, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeavenOnAStick

Yes, I would... That's why I'm trying to understand how both of those could be compatible. I guess I'll just wait for your email!

You WOULD think so, but you must not believe what you feel is right, but what the Bible teaches.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.

Modern reason often teaches this incompatibilism, but let God be found true, and every man be found a liar. I have yet to be shown any reason why they should be incompatible, but it is often widely assumed. It is certainly the Biblical testimony that they are compatible.

Proverbs 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Ezra 6:22 And they observed the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the LORD had caused them to rejoice, and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria toward them to encourage them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.

Time and again the Bible places them side by side, as fully compatible. Further, you have offered nothing but your feeling that they should be incompatible as reason that they would be. It is an unfounded assumption that there should be any contradiction: this is not even a paradox. It sounds wrong to many people, but that does not mean there is any reason it would be. Can you provie such a reason for me?

shakeybill · 12-22-2003, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Worm

The two are only compatible depending on your definition of free will. This is why, for clarification purposes, Calvinists will frequently say that we do not have free will (in the libertarian sense), but only free choice. That is, we are free to choose that which we desire the greatest.

The mouse analogy does not work. That analogy said that when we make a wrong turn, or get off track, away from God's plan, that He intervenes and puts us back. But we can not get off track. We can not get away from God's plan.

Thanks for the response. I don't understand what the difference is between free will and free choice

Please give me an illustration of each as you understand the differences.

In Christ, Bill

DarylB · 12-22-2003, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadence

You would think so, huh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadianly correct and much more fitting version

You would think so eh?

.

Chico · 12-22-2003, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakeybill

Thanks for the response. I don't understand what the difference is between free will and free choice

Please give me an illustration of each as you understand the differences.

In Christ, Bill

as far as i understand it, and i know someone much smarter can give a better definition i'm sure, but free choice doesn't negate the fact that a choice must be made freely. it is just that the choice will be effected by our greatest desire. and according to scripture, man's greatest desire is sin. therefore our choice is free, but we will freely choose sin because that is our greatest desire.

free will is the ability to override our desires and make that free choice. free will indicates that even though our greatest desire is sin, we can override that desire and choose God.

for someone who is a lot smarter, is this an adequate definition?

chris