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Unread 12-21-2003, 12:56 PM   #1
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Ulrich Zwingli

Who was Ulrich Zwingli? I know he was one of the Protestant Reformers (sic) however, the only teaching of his that I am familiar with is that Communion effects no grace on the one partaking, Christ is in no way present (physically (Lutheran/Catholic/some Anglican) OR spiritually (Calvinist/some Anglican) in the Elements, and it is merely a symbol of Christs body.

But what were some of his other teachings, and which denominations do his teachings most affect today?

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Unread 12-21-2003, 04:14 PM   #2
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From my limited knowledge on the subject, the only breaking I believe Zwingli and Luther to have, was on the subject of communion. I posted this a long time ago in the Presby forum. I'll post it again.

Quote:
Luther and Zwingli broke on this issue. No confrontation illuminates more clearly the problem of authority than the debate on the sacrament of the altar, or Eucharist, between Lutherans and Zwinglians at Marburg, in Hesse, in October of 1529. Zwingli came to the colloquy with Johannes Occolampadius, the reformer of Basel, and the great Strasbourg theologian Martin Bucer. Luther came with Philip Melanchthon, his right-hand man and ultimately his sucessor. Luther began the debate by writing on a table in large letters Christ's words of institution: Hoc est corpus meum ("this is my body"--Matthew 26:26). Occolampadius replied that the word est ("is") should be understood symbolically to mean significat ("represents"). To prove this point he cited a text from the sixth chapter of John (verses 48-54). Here Jesus says that He is the bread of life, and continues, "Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." But the Jews and disciples take him literally, and Jesus hastens to explain, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh prfiteth nothing" (verse 63). Oecolampadius concluded, "Is it not then clear that Jesus would have nothing to do with the physical eating of His body?" In his splendidly one-track way, Luther answered: "I won't argue about whether est means significat. I rest content with what Christ says, and He says: This is my body. Not even the devil can change that. Therefore believe in the pure word of God and glorify Him."
The end came in a rapid dialogue between Luther and Zwingli:

Zwingli: We urge you too to give up your preconcieved opinion and glorify God. I do not give up my text either, and you will have to sing another song.
Luther: You are speaking in hatred.
Zwingli: Then let John 6 cure your ignorance.
Luther: You are trying to overwork it.
Zwingli: No! No! This text will break your neck.
Luther: Don't brag. Our necks don't break so fast. You are in Hesse now, not in Switzerland.

Luther concluded that he and Zwingli each had a diffferent kind of spirit. "I myself," he wrote later, "will in no wise hearken to aught that is contrary to my doctrine; for I am certain and persuaded through the Spirit of Christ, that my teaching...is true and certain." He was equally persuaded that Zwingli was the victim of spiritual witchcraft. The Catholics, of course, were certain that Luther himself was inspired by the devil. With a scatological wit entirely typical of Reformation polemic, Sir Thomas More pointed out that though Luther talked as if he wrre "safe in Christ's bosom," in reality "he lies shut up in the devil's anus."


____________________________________________
The dialogue between Luther and Zwingli came from D. Martin Luthers Werke, Vol. XXX.3 (Weimar, 1910), pp. 110-123.
The last paragraph part of Luther's conclusion came from A commentary of St. Paul's Epistle to the Galations, ed. by P. S. Watson (Westwood, N. J., n.d.) p. 195
Thomas Mores remark about Luther came from Responsio ad Lutherum, p. 127
The whole passage was taken out of a copied booklet i got in history class named Revolution and Reformation: The problem of Authority
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Unread 12-21-2003, 04:21 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miscellaneous
From my limited knowledge on the subject, the only breaking I believe Zwingli and Luther to have, was on the subject of communion. I posted this a long time ago in the Presby forum. I'll post it again.
Problem of authority indeed!
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In the flesh You fell asleep as a mortal man, O King and Lord,
You arose on the third day, freeing Adam from corruption and destroying death!
O Pascha of incorruption! The salvation of the world...

Exapostilarion of Pascha


Last edited by Homer Simpson; 12-23-2003 at 04:15 PM.
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Unread 12-21-2003, 06:54 PM   #4
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are you picking a fight again
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Unread 12-21-2003, 07:33 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICTHUS
Problem of authority indeed! Look what divisions the Reformation (sic) caused!
...and look what heresy the papacy has wrought.

Don't cry - you asked for it.

Seriously, drop it. If your solution to division is to have everyone submit themselves to one man's fallible authority rather than that of a plurality of elders (as instructed and practiced by the apostles themselves), then I'll take division any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
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Unread 12-21-2003, 08:36 PM   #6
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Yeah, I usually consider ICTHUS a fairly sensible guy, but the "(sic)" thing seems awfully passive-agressive.
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Unread 12-21-2003, 08:40 PM   #7
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What is the (sic) thing, anyway?
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Unread 12-21-2003, 11:18 PM   #8
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(sic) means that you are quoting something that is incorrect (usually grammatically,) and that you realize that.
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Unread 12-22-2003, 09:35 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by §
(sic) means that you are quoting something that is incorrect (usually grammatically,) and that you realize that.
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Unread 12-22-2003, 10:07 PM   #10
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Though the question still remains why Mr. Hill gives us this burst of snideness then drops out of the conversation altogether.

I suppose I could just as well suffix the term "Catholic" with a (sic), since the Catholic Church (sic) isn't the universal church anymore - it's one of many Christian churches.

Oh, but wait - that would be petty and childish, wouldn't it? Hmm...
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Unread 12-22-2003, 10:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterAgreeable
(sic)
sic is mainly used in quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterAgreeable
it's [the Roman Catholic Church is] one of many Christian churches. [sic]
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Unread 12-22-2003, 10:18 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by §
sic is mainly used in quotes:
The lesson in sic usage is really not necessary. I was parodying Mr. Hill's usage of it.

(Was that not entirely obvious?)
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Unread 12-22-2003, 10:58 PM   #13
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Yeah, that really is annoying and condescending. Suppose that, in exchange for Ichthus saying "Reformation (sic)," We say "Roman Catholic Church (sic)."

It all just gets to be pretty childish in the end.
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Unread 12-22-2003, 11:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterAgreeable
The lesson in sic usage is really not necessary. I was parodying Mr. Hill's usage of it.

(Was that not entirely obvious?)
My quote example implyed that the RCC was not a Christian Church.
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Unread 12-22-2003, 11:24 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brown07
Yeah, that really is annoying and condescending. Suppose that, in exchange for Ichthus saying "Reformation (sic)," We say "Roman Catholic Church (sic)."

It all just gets to be pretty childish in the end.
And the beginning, I might add.
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