[Nomes]

Let's talk patriotism

Can patriotism be a negative thing?
Where are we instructed by God to be patriotic?


Discuss....

[bobthecockroach]

Originally Posted by Nomes

Can patriotism be a negative thing?

Yes.

Where are we instructed by God to be patriotic?

Nowhere, to my knowledge.

[Travis]

Yes and no, respectively.

I had a senior level philosophy course that once an entire semester on the subject of patriotism and nationalism, so I know more than I want to know about that. We debated whether one was justified in favoring compatriots and stuff like that. I don't think one is allowed, biblically, to do so.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Travis

Yes and no, respectively.

I had a senior level philosophy course that once an entire semester on the subject of patriotism and nationalism, so I know more than I want to know about that. We debated whether one was justified in favoring compatriots and stuff like that. I don't think one is allowed, biblically, to do so.

so are you saying that it is a sin to be a patriot?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Bryan

so are you saying that it is a sin to be a patriot?

Would it be right for a German in Nazi Germany to be a patriot?

Was it wrong for The Colonies not to be patriotic in regards to England in events leading up to the Revolutionary War?

What exactly does patriotism mean to you? Is it acceptance of the actions of a certain country? Is it preference of one country over another? Is it loyalty to one's country?

[Laura]

Assuming that those questions are addressed to everyone, I would say it is more of a sort of unconditional support of a country and its actions, whether they are moral and/or Biblical or not. That's where the problem arises, in my opinion. Patriotism has always had a sort of fanatical connotation in my mind - it seems kind of unnecessary. Also, I don't think I've ever seen anything good come out of patriotism by itself.

With that said, I think that yes, it is a sin to be unconditionally in favor of a group of human (therefore often errant) leaders like America's. But that's only if my definition is accurate.

[Stranger]

while we are on the topic of patriotism and americanism, here is a piece from revelation...


17

1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "come, I will show you the judgment of the great whore who is seated on many waters,

2 with whom the kings of the earth have commited fornication, and with the wine of whose fornication the inhabitants of the earth have become drunk."

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns.

4 The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her fornication;

5 and on her forhead was written a name, a mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of whores and of earth's abominations."

6 And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the witnesses to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly amazed.

7 But the angel said to me, "Why are you so amazed? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her.

8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not be written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

9 "This calls for a mind that has wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; also they are seven kings,

10 of whom five have fallen, one is living, and the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain only for a little while.

11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.

12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.

13 These are united in yielding their power and authority to the beast;

14 they will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."

15 And he said to me, "The waters that you saw, where the whore is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages.

16 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the whore; they will make here desolate and naked; they will devour her flesh and burn her up with fire.

17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by agreeing to give their kingdom to the beast, untill the words of God will be fulfilled.

18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth. "


18

1 After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority; and the earth was made bright with his splendor.

2 He called out with a mighty voice, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! It has become a dwelling place of demons, a haunt of every foul and hateful bird, a haunt of every foul and hateful beast.

3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have commited fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxury."

4 Then i heard another voice form heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people so that you do not take part in her sins, and so that you do not share in her plagues;

5 for her sins are heaped as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

7 ... in her heart she says, 'I rule as a queen; I am no widow, and I will never see grief,'

8 therefore her plagues will come in a single day--pestilence and mourning and famine-- and she will be burned with fire; for mighty is the Lord God who judges her."

9 And the kings of the earth, who commited fornication and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning;

10 they will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas, alas, the great city, Babylon, the mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come."

11 And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn for her, since no one buys their cargo anymore, cargo of gold, silver, jewels and pearls, fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet, all kinds of scented wood, all articles of ivory, and all articles of costly wood, bronze, iron and marble,

13 cinnamon, spice, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, olive oil, choice flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, slaves--and human lives.

14 "The fruit for which your soul has longed has gone from you, all your dainties and your splendor are lost to you, never to be found again!"

15 The merchants of these wares, who gained wealth from her, will stand far off, in fear of her torment, weeping and mourning aloud,

16 "Alas, alas, the great city, clothed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet, adorned with gold, with jewels, and with pearls!

17 For in one hour all this wealth has been laid waste!" And all shipmasters and seafarers, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off

18 and cried out as they saw the smoke of her burning, "What city was like the great city?"

19 And they threw dust on their heads, as they wept and mourned, crying out, "Alas, Alas, the great city, where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth! For in one hour she has been laid waste.

20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, you saints and apostles and prophets! For God has given judgment for you against her."

21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "With such violence Babylon the great city will be thrown down, and will be found no more;

22 and the sound of harpists and minstrels and of flutists and trumpeters will be heard in you no more; and an artisan of any trade will be found in you no more; and the sound of the millstone will be heard in you no more;

23 and the light of a lamp will shine in you no more; and the voice of bridegroom and bridge will be heard in you no more; for your merchants were the magnates of the earth, and all nations were deceived by your sorcery.

24 And in you was found the blood of the prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slaughtered on earth."

[Joel]

Where are we instructed by God to be patriotic?

Hebrews! We must remember that since our salvation we are njow citizens of heaven and ambassadors of that "country". So yes we are to be very patriotic to our nation. As for ther lands we labor in until we are called Home by God, I think in a case of a free nation we should be grateful and use the opportunity to glorify God.

Travis and Bob the Cockroach are right on here as well as every one else who posted so far.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Bryan

so are you saying that it is a sin to be a patriot?

Depends on your definition of being a patriot. If by patriot you mean someone who just thinks their country is cool, I see no problem with that. But that's really saying nothing philosophically. I am saying it would often be sinful to favor compatriots in matters simply on that criterion.

[bobthecockroach]

My definition is right along the lines of dictionary.com's (not that anyone asked)

Patriot - One who loves, supports, and defends one's country.

I see nothing wrong with that.

[JerryLove]

Dunno, fervent devotion to a country soulds like workshipping false Gods to me.

[bobthecockroach]

It could become such but is not necessarily. You are making an affirmative statement, prove it based on something more than your feelings.

[Lightknight]

We are instructed only to give Caesar what is Caesar's. Of course Caesar implies the government. Also, we are to obey the laws of the land, as long as they aren't against biblical things. But being patriotic can be a really bad thing. Your country can actually become an idol. If you would obey your country before you would obey God then there is something wrong. I feel like this is a rambling post. But maybe I said something of value in there.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by JerryLove

Dunno, fervent devotion to a country soulds like workshipping false Gods to me.

Yes, this is actually a good point. It all depends on who you are more devoted to. If it is God then you should be alright.

[Benny Hicks]

We are citizens of heaven, and ought not elevate the desires of a given political entity above God's desire. Unquestioned loyalty to one's country (patriotism) is not biblical.

Ben