[Bryan]

Originally Posted by gruveguy

We are citizens of heaven, and ought not elevate the desires of a given political entity above God's desire. Unquestioned loyalty to one's country (patriotism) is not biblical.

Ben

it's not sinful either. nowhere are we commanded to be a patriot, and nowhere are we commanded not to be a patriot.

if your devotion to you country rises above your devotion to God then it is a problem.

[MisterAgreeable]

I see plenty of Biblical support for patriotism. Prophets seemed to have a particular loyalty to their homeland, and there are psalms that reflect that as well. Having a special fondness or love for the place you live doesn't seem to be anything bad at all.

Someone earlier (Cheese, I think) asked if it was acceptible for a German citizen to have been patriotic during Hitler's reign - I would say absolutely. How better to describe the actions of someone like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, than patriotism? He wasn't loyal to Hitler, but he had a special loyalty to Germany, and placed his life at risk to stay involved with the church in Germany. He loved the place, he loved the people, but he sought actively to destroy its corrupt government. Here's a quote:

I shall have no right to participate in the reconstruction of Christian life in Germany after the war if I do not share the trails of this time with my people... Christians in Germany will face the terrible alternative of either willing the defeat of their nation in order that Christian civilization may survive, or willing the victory of their nation and thereby destroying our civilation. I know which of these alternatives I must choose; but I cannot make this choice in security.

Being a patriot doesn't in an of itself mean you support your country above God's laws, or the good of all mankind, any more than being a husband means you support your wife above God's laws. If either of those are taken too far, it's not the institution to blame, it's the individual's application of those institutions that is to blame.

[JerryLove]

It could become such but is not necessarily. You are making an affirmative statement, prove it based on something more than your feelings.

I conducted a poll, as per your request, of every one of me in existance. The outome is:
100% sounds like worshipping false idols
0% doesn't sound like worshipping false idols.

Now, I cannot attest to weather it *is*; but I never claimed it was. And at the risk of an appeal to popularity (hard to argue with 100%), every me has stated that it sounds like worshipping false idols.

Do you have any evidence that might suggest that it does not sound like worshipping false idols to me? Have you found a me that you think lied on the survey and has recanted?

[Amanda]

Originally Posted by MisterAgreeable

Someone earlier (Cheese, I think) asked if it was acceptible for a German citizen to have been patriotic during Hitler's reign - I would say absolutely. How better to describe the actions of someone like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, than patriotism? He wasn't loyal to Hitler, but he had a special loyalty to Germany, and placed his life at risk to stay involved with the church in Germany. He loved the place, he loved the people, but he sought actively to destroy its corrupt government.

Someone's been reading Thoreau, hasn't he?

[MisterAgreeable]

Originally Posted by Amanda

Someone's been reading Thoreau, hasn't he?

I must not have payed much attention when I read Thoreau, because I don't remember him talking about revolution at all. I was thinking more of Mornay.

[JerryLove]

Maybe Mornay was reading the Thoreau Amanda was thinking of?

[Amanda]

That just sounded very "Civil Disobedience"-esque.

[nolidad]

Do you have any evidence that might suggest that it does not sound like worshipping false idols to me? Have you found a me that you think lied on the survey and has recanted?

Idolatry is all a matter of the heart. One can have devotion, to a person, place or thing and stillnot have it be idolatry though it may appear to be. This is an area that at times only Gods and the individual know.

[Benny Hicks]

Originally Posted by MisterAgreeable

Prophets seemed to have a particular loyalty to their homeland, and there are psalms that reflect that as well.

Prophets were also from Israel, God's chosen nation, and therefore had every reason to be patriotic. I would argue that we ought all to be patriotic of our citizenship of God's kingdom, and not of any other.

Having a special fondness or love for the place you live doesn't seem to be anything bad at all.

Nor does it fit the definition of patriotism provided

Being a patriot doesn't in an of itself mean you support your country above God's laws, or the good of all mankind, any more than being a husband means you support your wife above God's laws.

I agree, but this is not true according to the definition provided by bobthecockroach. He implied that the love of one's country superceded one's devotion to any other entity.

Ben