[Dice]

Ok so I wanted to make a topic on these first of all because they sound so cool (especially Leviathan!) and second of all because my bible has some incredibly stupid notes.

First Behemoth:

Job 40
15 "Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you;
He eats grass like an ox.
16 "Behold now, his strength in his loins
And his power in the muscles of his belly.
17 "He bends his tail like a cedar;
The sinews of his thighs are knit together.
18 "His bones are tubes of bronze;
His limbs are like bars of iron.
19 "He is the first of the ways of God;
Let his maker bring near his sword.
20 "Surely the mountains bring him food,
And all the beasts of the field play there.
21 "Under the lotus plants he lies down,
In the covert of the reeds and the marsh.
22 "The lotus plants cover him with shade;
The willows of the brook surround him.
23 "If a river rages, he is not alarmed;
He is confident, though the Jordan rushes to his mouth.
24 "Can anyone capture him when he is on watch,
With barbs can anyone pierce his nose?

Ok now my bible has a footnote that says this would be a hippopotamus, and while that sorta makes sense for some of it, but I don't know of any of any hippos with tails like a cedar. And overall it seems bigger, more powerful than a hippo.

Now for Leviathan (which is so awesome and the footnote absurd):

Job 41
1 "Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook?
Or press down his tongue with a cord?
2 "Can you put a rope in his nose
Or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3 "Will he make many supplications to you,
Or will he speak to you soft words?
4 "Will he make a covenant with you?
Will you take him for a servant forever?
5 "Will you play with him as with a bird,
Or will you bind him for your maidens?
6 "Will the traders bargain over him?
Will they divide him among the merchants?
7 "Can you fill his skin with harpoons,
Or his head with fishing spears?
8 "Lay your hand on him;
Remember the battle; you will not do it again!
9 "Behold, your expectation is false;
Will you be laid low even at the sight of him?
10 "No one is so fierce that he dares to arouse him;
Who then is he that can stand before Me?
11 "Who has given to Me that I should repay him?
Whatever is under the whole heaven is Mine.
12 "I will not keep silence concerning his limbs,
Or his mighty strength, or his orderly frame.
13 "Who can strip off his outer armor?
Who can come within his double mail?
14 "Who can open the doors of his face?
Around his teeth there is terror.
15 "His strong scales are his pride,
Shut up as with a tight seal.
16 "One is so near to another
That no air can come between them.
17 "They are joined one to another;
They clasp each other and cannot be separated.
18 "His sneezes flash forth light,
And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19 "Out of his mouth go burning torches;
Sparks of fire leap forth.
20 "Out of his nostrils smoke goes forth
As from a boiling pot and burning rushes.
21 "His breath kindles coals,
And a flame goes forth from his mouth.
22 "In his neck lodges strength,
And dismay leaps before him.
23 "The folds of his flesh are joined together,
Firm on him and immovable.
24 "His heart is as hard as a stone,
Even as hard as a lower millstone.
25 "When he raises himself up, the mighty fear;
Because of the crashing they are bewildered.
26 "The sword that reaches him cannot avail,
Nor the spear, the dart or the javelin.
27 "He regards iron as straw,
Bronze as rotten wood.
28 "The arrow cannot make him flee;
Slingstones are turned into stubble for him.
29 "Clubs are regarded as stubble;
He laughs at the rattling of the javelin.
30 "His underparts are like sharp potsherds;
He spreads out like a threshing sledge on the mire.
31 "He makes the depths boil like a pot;
He makes the sea like a jar of ointment.
32 "Behind him he makes a wake to shine;
One would think the deep to be gray-haired.
33 "Nothing on earth is like him,
One made without fear.
34 "He looks on everything that is high;
He is king over all the sons of pride."

Bible footnote:
1. Or the crocodile

NO WAY is that even remotely close to a crocodile. Not to mention...

Psalm 74:13-14
You divided the sea by Your strength;
You broke the heads of the sea monsters in the waters.
You crushed the heads of Leviathan;
You gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness.

Heads?

Isaiah 27:1
In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.

Yeah, so why are my bibles footnotes so stupid? BTW it's NASB.

[Skeeter]

What annoys me more is the NLT, which actually translates them as "hippo" and "crocodile" relegating behemoth and leviathan to the footnotes.

My NASB has the suggestion for crocodile in the footnotes and it's from the '95 update.

[Skeeter]

Okay, I swear there was a post before mine...

[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by Skeeter

What annoys me more is the NLT, which actually translates them as "hippo" and "crocodile" relegating behemoth and leviathan to the footnotes.

That is because the NLT is best used as a door stop.

[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by Skeeter

Okay, I swear there was a post before mine...

There was, I deleted it when I realized I was wrong.

[Skeeter]

Great, I didn't even get to correct you...

My NLT is rarely opened these days, and is generally used to fill a space in my bookshelf.

[Ryan Akers]

Originally Posted by Mr McB

Ok now my bible has a footnote that says this would be a hippopotamus, and while that sorta makes sense for some of it, but I don't know of any of any hippos with tails like a cedar. And overall it seems bigger, more powerful than a hippo.

What, you don't see the tail like cedar?



To me this subject is one of the most interesting, because the descriptions are really different than anything we can really imagine.

The other day in my Gov class, my teacher said something about dinosaurs never being mentioned in the Bible...I just kinda kept shut up and didn't bring up all the ideas of Leviathan.

And yes McB, leviathan is a very good word. In fact, I believe I'll name my child that.

[MRGREEN23]

Not trying to propose anything not said, but let me add what my notes say from my studying of this scripture...


Frist, with Job 40....

"Behemoth"...... It is not definate what animal is referred to here. A study of this passage by critics and naturists has brought the conclusion that either the elephant or hippopotamus is meant. But there are some remaining difficulties, for part of the description does not fit either animal (as stated many times before). It could be that the animal referred to is now extinct. THIS IS A POSSIBILITY....We DO know that beasts of tremendous size have roamed the earth in ages past. The fact that "behemoth" was chief of the ways of God (vs. 19) suggests that he was something more tham an elephant or a hippo.....

Whatever it was, it was made when Adam was made. (vs 15, "Which I made with THEE).

As far as Leviathan, all I can say, is that it is only asking questions about it.... twenty questions to be exact......

In my opinion, for what it's worth, and that's not much to most around here, I feel as though this is a symbol of Satan. A great dragon who is the enemy of both man and God. Certain descriptions in this passage could refer only to a supernatural being, as in Isaiah 27:1, Rev. 12.....Here in verse 34 he is called the king over all the children of pride.
Reference to Ephesians 2:1-3 (KJV),
(1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The word PRIDE is not used of beasts in all the book of Job. It is always used of men...Outside of the book of Job, PRIDE is used 45 times and always of men.....

To interpret this verse to mean that Leviathan is king over all the animals is out of harmony with truth. If he is king over all the sons of the proud human race, then beyond doubt, he is Satan.........

Subject to interpretation....


Mr. Green.....23

[tojitunes]

Let's just say, if that is an apt description of a crocodile, then that guy Steve Irwin from animal planet is even crazier than I thought.

I would have to say that there is nothing else in mind here other than dinosaurs. I have heard it purported that the idea of behemoth being the "first" or "cheif" (KJV) of the ways of God is a reference to his size. Namely, he was the biggest, a description better used to describe the brachiosaurus or something along those lines. And obviously, there is no way a corcodile even comes close to the description offered about Leviathan.

By the way, the only reason I would not use the NLT as a doorstop, is because I wouldn't want anyone to know I actually wasted money on it.

[Dice]

Mr Green that is an interesting view, but could it be a means of saying no matter how prideful you are, Leviathan silences you, lets you know your place? obviously that is the sort of affect it had on Job. Not to mention I fail to understand how the body of satan, a spritiual being, could be given as food for the creatures of the wilderness.

[Joel]

Ok so I wanted to make a topic on these first of all because they sound so cool (especially Leviathan!) and second of all because my bible has some incredibly stupid notes.

This is nolidad.

Personal beleif? Some type of extinct dinosaurs. Possibly a gigantasaurus and a kronosaur.

[regulon]

I've never given it much thought, but I was always under the impression that "behemoth" referred to brachiosaurus as somebody mentioned or something along those lines, while "leviathan" was a dragon

[Dice]

Yeah, I don't think the giganotosaurus ate grass like an ox, it sounds like like a brachiosaurus.

And Leviathan doesn't sound like any of the artistic renderings of dinosaurs I've heard it compared to. It not only sounds similar to a chinese dragon, but I get the impression that Leviathan was one of a kind rather than a species.

[Mr. Squeeky]

Several things.

1- We are living in a generation that has grown up with cartoons. After seeing thousand-foot long monsters that consume small cities for a snack and drink oceans of blood as a light refreshment, we come to the Bible and read our own culture into it. That is just plain wrong. It should be the other way around.

How does the description in Job seem bigger and more powerful than a hippo? Is there a measurement in feet and inches that it gives and somehow the hippo fails that? Did the inspired author happened to be an inspired artist as well and happen to draw a picture to show you? You don't really have a case against this description NOT describing a hippo.

That being said, the hippopotamus is an amazing animal. Hippos alone cause more deaths in Africa annualy than lions, hyenas and elephants combined. The hippopotamus' jaw has enough power to snap a crocodile in half. Other animals know better than to mess with hippopotami. Forget the hippo-song you learned in VBS. Real hippos are dangerous.

"Bending his tail like a cedar" To be honest, I have no idea what this phrase means. Everything said about the hippo and about cedar from this point is admittedly conjecture and based on things I know about guitars. Cedar is a very pliable wood. Bending a tail like a cedar does not mean having a tail as big as a cedar as some people on this board believe. Cedar is soft, beautiful and fragrant. Is this what the author meant? I really have no idea. In this case your guess is as good as mine.

Crocodiles.

The only objection I see to this being a crocodile is the images of flame and smoke coming forth from his mouth. However that may be all poetic imagery and not something we would consider a fantastic monster.

I won't say much more on that.

However your reading of Psalms is faulty. HeadS is referring to sea monsterS. Plural for plural. Simple as that.

Isaiah.

Most people I believe take the passage in question as an allegorical and not a literal reading.

[Dice]

Ok I could see that for the hippo, but...

Crocodiles.

The only objection I see to this being a crocodile is the images of flame and smoke coming forth from his mouth. However that may be all poetic imagery and not something we would consider a fantastic monster.

I won't say much more on that.

Thats quite liberal seeing as how the rest of God's speech seemed so straight...

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/leviathan.html

Crocodiles are very commonly defeatable, you can tie them up, weapons pierce them, defeat them, they do not create a crash when they raise up that causes bewilderment, their eyes are not like the morning, they have demonstrated fearful actions, as far as I know hey are river-dwelling not sea-dwelling, many people are fierce enough that they dare arouse them, people strip them of their skin.

However your reading of Psalms is faulty. HeadS is referring to sea monsterS. Plural for plural. Simple as that.

I dont see that..

You divided the sea by Your strength;
You broke the heads of the sea monsters in the waters.

Monsters, and a head for each, yes. But...

You crushed the heads of Leviathan;
You gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness.

Heads of LeviathaN, singular, not plural. And gave HIM, singular, not plural. Leviathan appears to not be a species but a name, the title of the greatest beast of the sea.