[psalm63adam]

Okay, let me first of all state the reason for the thread:

There has been a charge by Calvinists to Arminians on this board that Arminians do not have Scripture to back up their beliefs. I am hoping to dispel that charge. I will be posting verses supporting each of the Remonstrances. I am starting with the second point, because I have been getting ready to debate a fellow CGR'er over pm on Limited Atonement.

This thread is not for Calvinists to refute any of these verses; if you want to refute a verse, start another thread. This is simply a thread for me to post verses, as well as any other Arminian who has other verses to defend the Remonstrances.

Point #2: Christ died for and obtained redemption and forgiveness of sins for all, but these benefits are effective only for those who believe on Christ.

1 John 2:2 - 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[1] the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 - 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

1 Tim. 2:3-6 - 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time..

Romans 11:32 - 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

1 Corinthians 15:22 - 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Titus 2:11 - 11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

Acts 17:30-31 - 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

John 3:16-18 - 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[1] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

1 John 4:14 - 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Philippians 2:10-11 - 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Timothy 4:10 - 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

2 Peter 3:9 - 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Colossians 1:20 - 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Hebrews 2:9 - 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

John 1:29 - 29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 John 2:2 - 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[1] the sins of the whole world.

Romans 5:18 - 18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15 - 14For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 - 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.

Isaiah 55:1, 7 - 1 "Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the LORD , and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Matthew 11:28 - 28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

Hebrews 9:26 - 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Isaiah 53:6 - 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

2 Corinthians 5:14-20 - 14For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Revelation 22:17 - 17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

(these next two verses deal with the word sinner - I believe that there is never a time when the word sinner is referred only to the elect or the church.)

1 Tim 1:15 - 15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst.

Romans 5:6-8 - 6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

John 12:46 - 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

John 12:47 - 47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.

2 Peter 2:1 - 1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

[Dice]

Again, when you find the time to stop merely outlining your beliefs and actually provide the scriptural argumentation for the distinction of your beliefs, I'll be waiting for you.

But I guess if you're going the route of pm debate you may change your mind before then.

[Cadence]

I would like to add to the list:

John 4:42 - 42 They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

Romans 3:23,24 - 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

[brown07]

I know you said not to debate particular verses here, but I think it's absurd to post a bunch of verses and expect to not have them critiqued.

That being said, your interpretation of some of these verses ABSOLUTELY demands universalism. In order to use verses like I Corinthians 15:22 (all will be made alive in Christ) and Romans 3:23-24 (all are justified feely...) one must concede universalism.

[shakeybill]

Originally Posted by brown07

I know you said not to debate particular verses here, but I think it's absurd to post a bunch of verses and expect to not have them critiqued.

That being said, your interpretation of some of these verses ABSOLUTELY demands universalism. In order to use verses like I Corinthians 15:22 (all will be made alive in Christ) and Romans 3:23-24 (all are justified feely...) one must concede universalism.

I would agree that taking some of those verses out of the context of believing the gospel for them to be effective would teach universalism.

One verse later in 1 Cor 15:23 the 'all who are made alive' are indicated as those 'who are Christ's'. 1 Cor 15:1 sets the 'target audience' of ch 15 as those who have received (believed) the gospel.

One verse earlier in Romans 3:22 says that the righteousness of God is for all who believe.

The verses in context do not demand universalism.

In Christ, Bil

[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by shakeybill

One verse later in 1 Cor 15:23 the 'all who are made alive' are indicated as those 'who are Christ's'. 1 Cor 15:1 sets the 'target audience' of ch 15 as those who have received (believed) the gospel.

IOW, that does not teach "all" meaning every individual, but rather the Christians/elect/faith-favers/saints only?

[psalm63adam]

Originally Posted by brown07

I know you said not to debate particular verses here, but I think it's absurd to post a bunch of verses and expect to not have them critiqued.

Like I said, go start another thread if you want to put your Calvinistic slant on each verse.

[psalm63adam]

Originally Posted by Mr McB

Again, when you find the time to stop merely outlining your beliefs and actually provide the scriptural argumentation for the distinction of your beliefs, I'll be waiting for you.

But I guess if you're going the route of pm debate you may change your mind before then.

I don't see the difference between what I'm doing and what Calvinists do.

[shakeybill]

Originally Posted by gethedge

IOW, that does not teach "all" meaning every individual, but rather the Christians/elect/faith-favers/saints only?

I don't know what your driving towards there (cough Calvin...) so I'll say it applies to all who believe the gospel.

In Christ, Bill

[Athanasius]

Originally Posted by Scum.™

Like I said, go start another thread if you want to put your Calvinistic slant on each verse.

Parkway...to be honest with you...I don't think that anyone is going to take you seriously until you actually engage. To open a thread and disallow engagement is not the proper way to put forward one's beliefs.

Many Calvinists have offered to go one-on-one with you, John even had a thread where it was the arminian world against him. Yet you will not extend the Calvinists the same courtesy.

If your position is truly the correct one, stop taking the victim stance of "don't debate these" and making "Calvinists are all mean" threads. If you are correct, be a warrior. Take up your standard and publicly debate someone.

[psalm63adam]

Originally Posted by brown07

That being said, your interpretation of some of these verses ABSOLUTELY demands universalism.

It absolutely demands universalism if you believe in the Calvinist God.

Calvinism: if God's designs are always efficacious and can never be frustrated by man; and had God intended all men to be saved by the death of Christ, then all would be saved. It is clear that not everyone is saved, therefore Christ did not die for all.

I think this argument misconstrues the nature of God and also the nature of man as created in God's image. First, it misconstrues the nature of God because it makes God's sovereignty incongruous to any possibility of human freedom.

Secondly, the statement that God's designs can never be frustrated by man has to be incorrect! How do we account for the fact of sin in that case? Did the Holy Spirit turn His back on Adam and Eve and allow them to sin? If that is true, then there is no possible way to avoid saying that God was originally responsible for sin. Then there is the problem that Christians also continue to frustrate the will of God, or sin.

You can't have it both ways: either God is so in control that man cannot frustrate his power; therefore, sin is ultimately the result of God's permissive will; or man is free, and therefore can choose to accept God's gracious gift of salvation, and he, man, is responsible for sin.

[psalm63adam]

Originally Posted by Athanasius

Parkway...to be honest with you...I don't think that anyone is going to take you seriously until you actually engage. To open a thread and disallow engagement is not the proper way to put forward one's beliefs.

I have been engaging. Take a look at all the debates I've been having with Calvinists since I've been on this board. I don't understand why I can't just post a thread with Scripture references. I didn't say, "I'm posting these Scripture references and now I'll never debate on them." I just want the debates to take place in different threads so they don't muddy up these references.

Many Calvinists have offered to go one-on-one with you, John even had a thread where it was the arminian world against him. Yet you will not extend the Calvinists the same courtesy.

There have been two reasons why I have not engaged in a one-on-one debate.

1) The time factor.

I do not have the luxury of spending hours on this board debating. I am not in college. I have a wife, a newborn baby, a 50+ hour a week job, and ministries beyond my church job.

2) The responsibility factor.

Since we're being honest here, I don't know if I truly want the weight of the Arminian world on my shoulders. I haven't jumped in with both feet because like I've been saying over and over again, I'm not sure I totally agree with Arminian doctrine. Therefore, to stand on one side and argue for something I'm not completely sold on sounds like a set up for failure. I don't agree with Calvinism, and I don't totally agree with Arminianism...yet.

Plus, I'm not sure I'm ready to debate one-on-one with John. He has a gift for debate; I do not. He obviously has lots of time to research, study, prepare - I usually just shoot off at the mouth, because I don't have the time.

If your position is truly the correct one, stop taking the victim stance of "don't debate these" and making "Calvinists are all mean" threads. If you are correct, be a warrior. Take up your standard and publicly debate someone.

Again, I didn't say "don't debate these". I just asked if the debates could be taken to other threads. I started this thread to show that you can make a biblical case for Arminianism, at least for point #2 of the Remonstrances (I'm still working on the others when I have time).

As for the "Calvinists are all mean" threads, show me one I've started up in a long time. The only thing I've brought up recently is the overabundance of Calvinist debaters vs. Arminian debaters.

[Ted Logan]

It would have made more sense, then, to post the verses and then close the thread. When you have time for Part Two, then you could start a new thread. Then, put a link to the threads in your signature so that if they disappear from the front page, everyone can find them.

[Miscellaneous]

In all defense to parkway, mustbenothing did post a huge list of verses in support of Calvinism. The difference, I believe is that mustbenothing would argue his in his thread, whereas Parkway will not.

Again, he didn't necessarily say that these verses stand on their own, he just said to start another thread if you wish to critique them.

I don't see the difference between what I'm doing and what Calvinists do.

I have seen Calvinists go to great ends to debate the context of the scripture they use in support of the doctrine. I cannot honestly say that I have seen the same thing from Arminians. Of course, I'm not saying that Arminians ignore context, for I would sooner say that they take context into account, but are wrong in it, but I have not seen Arminians go into detail with verses and context on this board as I have seen some Calvinists do.

Brian

[Chrysostom]

Originally Posted by Scum.™

Like I said, go start another thread if you want to put your Calvinistic slant on each verse.

Ouch!

Originally Posted by Scum.™

I don't see the difference between what I'm doing and what Calvinists do.

I think the difference is that we're willing to flesh out exegesis of each passage

Originally Posted by Scum.™

Calvinism: if God's designs are always efficacious and can never be frustrated by man; and had God intended all men to be saved by the death of Christ, then all would be saved. It is clear that not everyone is saved, therefore Christ did not die for all.

The question is more about the nature of the atonement. If a substitutionary view is taken -- if Christ bought people -- then Limited Atonement follows. If a governmental (or further) view is taken -- if Christ bought chances -- then Unlimited Atonement can be maintained.

Originally Posted by Scum.™

As for the "Calvinists are all mean" threads, show me one I've started up in a long time. The only thing I've brought up recently is the overabundance of Calvinist debaters vs. Arminian debaters.

You're so biased, Adam. If you were actually looking for the truth, you would be starting "Calvinists are mean" threads every day