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Unread 12-21-2003, 10:13 AM   #91
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I found a site with some pictures of a CNC mill...

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Gene...y/CNC/cnc.html

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Unread 12-21-2003, 12:53 PM   #92
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Quote:
Just about every major manufactorer I know of has stopped using Mother of Pearl or abalone inlay,
Yeah, I have noticed that too. I know that mother of pearl dust from sawing, sanding, etc. is very toxic. Not sure about the abalone... I would guess that at least to some degree, with some manufacturers, particularly in the USA, some of the plastic substitutes are being used because of that.OSHA requires a lot of safeguards to prevent people from being exposed to any toxic substance; "clean room", hazardous material suits, respirators, etc, etc.

In the last couple decades, environmental and safety issues have become a lot more stringent. Another example would be the limitations that have been imposed by the EPA on the use of finishes that emit VOC's (volatile organic compunds) like nitrocellulose and acrylic lacquers. A lot of these regulations have also increased costs to manufacturers, such as having personnel with the sole responsibility to monitor for adherance to safety and hazardous material guidelines, mandatory safety & haz-mat training for shop employees, waste abatement, etc. Even non-toxic paint/finish "leftovers" and by-products have to be collected so that a hazardous material abatement company can be contracted to dispose of that stuff, and that is not cheap. Logs have to be kept to document the use and disposal of a lot of this stuff. These are all good things, intended to protect our environment and employee's health, but they do add a lot of cost to an american made guitar. These issues were a huge thing at the company I worked for, and a lot of our production planning was impacted by these regs.

Smaller shops do have an advantage in some of these issues; first, small companies are often "under the radar" of groups like the EPA, OSHA, etc. and I believe some regulations don't even apply to firms with less than a certain minimum # of employees. When I worked in the wood products industry a few years back, my firm did adhere to all the appropriate regs, but some of the small shops that we subcontracted work out to, did not. In fact, some of them didn't even have minimal stuff like paint booths, or always use respirators, and did not keep logs, or worry too much about how they disposed of the waste materials.
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Unread 12-22-2003, 08:11 PM   #93
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Okay, I'm going to respond to these posts one at a time. I would just assume do one long post, but it would be a logistical nightmare.

Here goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogeray
hahaha .... what a string of posts ... & no i didn't read every post either
Well, no offense, but that was evident from this post. Everything I am about to cover has already been covered, but I might as well give a laser recap of it, point by point.

boogeray - Now, no offense, and I didn't get a chance to really dig into this, but a lot of this stuff is really absurd. I find it really, really hard to believe that you have actually done any carpentry based on your comments.

For instance . . .

Quote:
never did any lutherie but i have done lotsa carpentry ... i understand a lot more than you think
Well, I wonder, because of the various comments you made, I wonder what you specifically understand. Not looking to start on a tear here, but, I mean, I must be missing something when I read these following comments.

Quote:
... i just know that "all handmade" is some what over rated & surely over priced
Overrated and surely overpriced? From what real world experience do you base this opinion? Not "real world conjecture". I mean, real world experience. Have you ever played and/or priced handmade guitars?

If you had read the previous posts, you would understand that Handmade guitars often run for the same amount as CNC'd guitars, especially with Gibson, PRS, and Fender. In fact, you can get an even better deal with Handmade, Luthiered instruments. You will be talking to the actual man who will build the instrument. You can work out a good deal that is a fair price and a win/win solution. You can't wheel and deal with a corporation, either at the manufacturer's level or the store level. You might talk the saleskid at GC down a bit within the range that is set by the sales manager, but otherwise you actually get more negotiating margin with a Luthier than with a saleskid at GC making $6 an hour.

Quote:
one question here ... how many folks here owns a totally "hand made" guitar, by a top notch luthier? . . . NOT ME!!!!!!
No kidding.

Have you ever played a Luthiered guitar? If you had, or you owned one, you wouldn't have posted this rather absurd post.

Quote:
... one that was made totally from one end to the other by one man, using primative, time consuming techniques? ...
"Primative, time-consuming techniques?" What planet are you from? I mean, I'm joking, but I'm kinda serious here. Primative techniques? What techniques are those? Whittling the guitar body down with Ancient Eqyption chisels? (Not that the Ancient Egyptians where primative by any stretch.) This is what I mean when I say I really doubt your carpentry experience. Just what do you think carpenters do? And how primative do you think carpenters are? Or luthiers for that matter? And what carpentry did you do? Primative carpentry? Modern carpentry? How do you define both of those terms?

I don't know how you define primative, but how about routers used with jigs and duplicarvers? That's what luthiers use, along with most carpenters I know, in terms of related skill sets.

Quote:
i usta operate a CNC mill with a 21 tool turrent, making aircraft parts (many flight safty parts for bell helicopter) ... simple operation?? ... not by a long shot ... folks that write the programs, buld the tooling & a whole host of other things, have been thru lots of training & have many, many hours of on the job experience ... kinda makes ya wonder what a ignorant hick like myself was doin there
Amusing anecdote. Just one thing. Guitars are not rocket science, or I guess aviation science for that matter. All the people you listed, and all the skills, are all inextricably linked to aviation engineering, and all the people who program CNC machines with them HAVE TO BE EXPERTS or else people will die, i.e. planes and choppers crashing from engine and equipment malfunction, etc.

Quote:
if i can get a top quality guitar, cut out with a CNC mill, for say round 1000 bux or less vs a top quality totally hand built guitar built by one man, using a seemingly primitive, old fashioned method, say for round 5000 bux .... ain't no mystery which one i'll choose
Cut out with a CNC mill? A CNC isn't a radial saw, or a jigsaw. It is a machine that renders 3D parts. You know this, right? Then why are you confusing it with some sort of high end lutherie tool? Also, once again, what's up with this "seemingly primitive, old fashioned method" you keep referring to?

Here's the deal, repeated for the 7th time. We are talking about Machine-Made Guitars at Hand-Made Prices!! - Said Guitars Insinuated to be Hand-Made thru the Ambiguous Ad Campaign and Marketing Efforts of the Mass-Producing Manufacturer!!!

Get that?

As I've said before, CNC's are great for making cost effective guitars for a few hundred bucks. That's great! No prob. I recommend them in the form of MIM Strats and Iby RG's all the time. That's not the point of this thread. The point is, to reiterate, Machine-Made Guitars at Hand-Made Prices!! - Said Guitars Insinuated to be Hand-Made thru the Ambiguous Ad Campaign and Marketing Efforts of the Mass-Producing Manufacturer!!!

So, to take your scenario, it would be better presented as this: If I can get a moderate quality, well-marketed, CNC made guitar for $3K, or I can get a High Quality, Handmade, Luthiered guitar totally to my spec for $3K, ain't no mystery which one I'll choose.

No mystery, indeed.



Quote:
if you try to tell me that a fella making totally handmade, can turn out each guitar exactly like the last one ... then discussing this with you is useless & i would say you have a very distorted veiw of lutherie
Oh, really? Very distorted view of Lutherie? I AM A LUTHIER!! I BUILT MY OWN GUITAR, AND BASS!! Was it the greatest guitar and bass on the face of the Earth? No. I was only 21 when I built them, but I did an excellent job based on all the feedback I got. But still, being that I built my own guitar from scratch (save a neck a got from a friend), I am technically a Luthier. I know this stuff.

So, I would say that I have a very clear, lucid view of Lutherie. You, however, seem to have no real world, real experience view of Lutherie. Nothing wrong with that, just don't make these comments without some grounding on it.

That said, let's look at one of your comments:

Quote:
if you try to tell me that a fella making totally handmade, can turn out each guitar exactly like the last one
What, do you think he's free-handing it or something!?! Ever heard of routers used with jigs and duplicarvers, mentioned previously?

How are two guitars going to be radically different if you are using the exact same routers, loaded with ball-bearing guides used with the same jigs and duplicarvers used with the same referrence plates? Quite the opposite, they will be virtually identical. How can they not be!?! They are made using the exact same guides.

If you had read any of the posts, you would have gotten that.

Now, granted, I agree that there is no way anyone could make identical guitars if they were freehanded, much the same way that it is virtually impossible to draw a straight line without a ruler, which is why a Luthier, like ALL OTHER CARPENTERS, use routers, loaded with ball-bearing guides used with jigs and duplicarvers used with referrence plates to create the same kind of results.

Quote:
a cnc mill or lathe can turn out parts with a tolerence of plus or minus .005 (that's one half thousandth) if need be ... ya can't do that by hand
Of course you can, using routers, loaded with ball-bearing guides used with jigs and duplicarvers used with referrence plates.

Like I said, no, you can't do that freehanded. And no Luthier that I know of does.

BTW, am I correct in assuming that ".005" is referring to a half thousandth of an inch? Assuming that, then, yes, using guides and jigs, you can get incredibly tight tolerances.

But let's say that we only got .01", here's my question. Could you spot it out of a line-up? I doubt it.

Quote:
what if i bought a totally hand made guitar & then i wanted another one just like it?? ... fat chance
Well, we covered that.

Now, no offense, and I'm not trying to totally dispel your comments here, but a lot of comments you made make absolutely no sense from a carpentry standpoint, and suggests that you are operating off of theory, conjecture, and no real world experience in these areas.

I mean, what kind of carpentry did you do, besides pushing buttons on a CNC machine? I'm serious. I am simply asking out of curiousity and just as a point of reference for discussion.

Chesh
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Last edited by CheshireCat; 12-22-2003 at 08:27 PM.
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Unread 12-22-2003, 08:41 PM   #94
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hahaha .... i just wonder if you talk to folks in this manner, face to face .... just how bigga ole boy are ya anyway????

i think you are as fulla stuffin' as a christmas turkey
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Unread 12-22-2003, 09:04 PM   #95
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Please, keep it clean in here. No insults, flaming, or otherwise inappropriate action in here.

Also, keep in mind that needlessly quoting long posts make this thread very hard to read.
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Unread 12-22-2003, 10:20 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boogeray
hahaha .... i just wonder if you talk to folks in this manner, face to face .... just how bigga ole boy are ya anyway????

i think you are as fulla stuffin' as a christmas turkey


Okay, whatever you say.

Chesh
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Unread 04-25-2004, 07:45 AM   #97
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cnc or handmade

i have read many replys redarding the manufacturing of guitars via. handmade, or a cnc method. and there are many issues here to consider, other than just being old fashioned in our thinking.
first. i am in the tool and die industry. and work closely with many "journeyman" tool and die makers. and also am an engineer/cad/cam programmer. yes those guys who make cnc programs. to just sit and think that our technology should not make advancements, in any area is blind and way too conservative. many yrs ago many mold makers did things the old fashioned ,hand made, manual way. similar to that of which you are talking about with the prodution of guitars. now cnc machines are used to produce those products. that doesnt mean its a lesser way of making something, just a smarter way. and more cost effective. yes, we could still dig a ditch with a shovel, or use old fashioned medicine. but as we humans become smarter and figure out ways of doing things that are more advanced. it would be ignorant, to just sit and think we should stick with an old fashioned method.
i think the issue here is that the guy who has spent many yrs. doing thing the old fashioned ways, isnt willing to accept change. and doesnt want to see something that he has spent so much time learning and doing, go by the way of a machine. if he were smart , rather than stubborn. he would learn new technology himself. become one of those programmers or something. move on with the times just as everyone has to.
the term handmade, carries no marit. all that matters is that the product keeps getting better.
you "handmade" people better go take a look at harley davidson. they used to be that way, they were a terrrible product. now they use technology , and are better than ever.
get with the times people, and quit living under a rock. better is better and thats all there is to it. and it takes just as much talent to design, and program as it does to do it by hand. one is just smarter that the other. thats all.
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Unread 04-25-2004, 09:37 AM   #98
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First off, welcome to the boards!

Quote:
first. i am in the tool and die industry. and work closely with many "journeyman" tool and die makers. and also am an engineer/cad/cam programmer. yes those guys who make cnc programs. to just sit and think that our technology should not make advancements, in any area is blind and way too conservative. many yrs ago many mold makers did things the old fashioned ,hand made, manual way. similar to that of which you are talking about with the prodution of guitars. now cnc machines are used to produce those products. that doesnt mean its a lesser way of making something, just a smarter way. and more cost effective. yes, we could still dig a ditch with a shovel, or use old fashioned medicine. but as we humans become smarter and figure out ways of doing things that are more advanced. it would be ignorant, to just sit and think we should stick with an old fashioned method.
Well first I'd like to adress that the building of guitars by hand isn't an "old fashioned method". If one were using handsaws and chisels, then yes. But if the luthier were using the aforementioned jigs and duplicarvers, the guitars can reach nearly the same exactness as those CNC milled guitars. Luthiers don't hand-build guitars using old fashioned methods. If you give them a new tool they can use, while still maintaining control over building the instrument, then yes, they will probably use it.

Quote:
i think the issue here is that the guy who has spent many yrs. doing thing the old fashioned ways, isnt willing to accept change. and doesnt want to see something that he has spent so much time learning and doing, go by the way of a machine. if he were smart , rather than stubborn. he would learn new technology himself. become one of those programmers or something. move on with the times just as everyone has to.
Or he may use one new technology, and find that another new technology just isn't cost-effective for him, and doesn't give him control over the guitar he's making. The guy who has spent years doing things knows everything that a machine doesn't know, and can cut and shape the tonewood to bring out the best in the guitar.

Quote:
the term handmade, carries no marit. all that matters is that the product keeps getting better.
you "handmade" people better go take a look at harley davidson. they used to be that way, they were a terrrible product. now they use technology , and are better than ever.
And they aren't guitars. Try handforming metal parts to the exactness that a CNC machine can. It's not easy. But if you have a luthier made guitar, which can easily reach as much perfection as the CNC'd guitar, it's not an inferior product compared to the mass-produced CNC guitar. With today's technology, luthiers can make excellent guitars without a CNC mill.

Quote:
get with the times people, and quit living under a rock. better is better and thats all there is to it. and it takes just as much talent to design, and program as it does to do it by hand. one is just smarter that the other. thats all.
Handmade guitars aren't worse then CNC-milled guitars. They aren't inferior technologically, or musically. One of them is just mass produced while the other is made with more care, giving you a better instrument.
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Unread 04-25-2004, 12:44 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vjc2708
i have read many replys redarding the manufacturing of guitars via. handmade, or a cnc method. and there are many issues here to consider, other than just being old fashioned in our thinking.
first. i am in the tool and die industry. and work closely with many "journeyman" tool and die makers. and also am an engineer/cad/cam programmer. yes those guys who make cnc programs. to just sit and think that our technology should not make advancements, in any area is blind and way too conservative. many yrs ago many mold makers did things the old fashioned ,hand made, manual way. similar to that of which you are talking about with the prodution of guitars. now cnc machines are used to produce those products. that doesnt mean its a lesser way of making something, just a smarter way. and more cost effective. yes, we could still dig a ditch with a shovel, or use old fashioned medicine. but as we humans become smarter and figure out ways of doing things that are more advanced. it would be ignorant, to just sit and think we should stick with an old fashioned method.
i think the issue here is that the guy who has spent many yrs. doing thing the old fashioned ways, isnt willing to accept change. and doesnt want to see something that he has spent so much time learning and doing, go by the way of a machine. if he were smart , rather than stubborn. he would learn new technology himself. become one of those programmers or something. move on with the times just as everyone has to.
the term handmade, carries no marit. all that matters is that the product keeps getting better.
you "handmade" people better go take a look at harley davidson. they used to be that way, they were a terrrible product. now they use technology , and are better than ever.
get with the times people, and quit living under a rock. better is better and thats all there is to it. and it takes just as much talent to design, and program as it does to do it by hand. one is just smarter that the other. thats all.
Do you actually have any real world experience with Handmade, Luthiered guitars?

Chesh
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Unread 04-26-2004, 06:30 PM   #100
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first i would like to say, i have the utmost respect to anyone who handcrafts anything in todays "techno" society. i was not trying in any way to imply that cnc made guitars are better or worse than hand made. the talent and skill and craftsmanship involved is indesputable. but, i was only relpying to those who knock the cnc method. neither is better or worse. and they both i think have their own place in the world. hope i didnt offend anyone. we all have skills in different areas, and those who work in the cnc world are just as skilled as those who dont. just using a different medium thats all. we're all correct on this one. the tools we use are just different. manual, or programmable, its all good..
have a great day..
j
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Unread 04-26-2004, 07:07 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vjc2708
first i would like to say, i have the utmost respect to anyone who handcrafts anything in todays "techno" society. i was not trying in any way to imply that cnc made guitars are better or worse than hand made. the talent and skill and craftsmanship involved is indesputable. but, i was only relpying to those who knock the cnc method. neither is better or worse. and they both i think have their own place in the world. hope i didnt offend anyone. we all have skills in different areas, and those who work in the cnc world are just as skilled as those who dont. just using a different medium thats all. we're all correct on this one. the tools we use are just different. manual, or programmable, its all good..
have a great day..
j
Cool. No worries. I like CNC's perfectly fine, and I think they are quite useful for many things, but what I take siginificant umbrage with is making a guitar by CNC and then trying to pass it off as handmade, and also charging handmade prices for that matter.

Chesh
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Unread 04-27-2004, 04:03 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vjc2708
first i would like to say, i have the utmost respect to anyone who handcrafts anything in todays "techno" society. i was not trying in any way to imply that cnc made guitars are better or worse than hand made. the talent and skill and craftsmanship involved is indesputable. but, i was only relpying to those who knock the cnc method. neither is better or worse. and they both i think have their own place in the world. hope i didnt offend anyone. we all have skills in different areas, and those who work in the cnc world are just as skilled as those who dont. just using a different medium thats all. we're all correct on this one. the tools we use are just different. manual, or programmable, its all good..
have a great day..
j
OK. I'm in no way saying that the CNC method is in any way bad. CNC guitars rock for the prices you can fetch 'em at. They are also very good playing guitars.
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Unread 01-24-2005, 08:04 PM   #103
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Replying to CC's post here, in the appropriate thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
You obviously have no experience with woodworking on any tangible level, nor excellence in carpentry, or else you wouldn't even have approached the idea that it is about accuracy with a CNC machine, but are purely approaching this from a production standpoint, and not what the premise of that entire thread was about, namely Machine-Made Guitars at Hand-Made Prices - Said Guitars Insinuated to be Hand-Made thru the Ambiguous Ad Campaign and Marketing Efforts of the Mass-Producing Manufacturer.
I got that part. You said it a million times. Then you babbled on about how jigs can reproduce parts with the same (or near the same) accuracy as a CNC machining center can. They can't. PERIOD. One can only assume that you haven't spent much time around a CNC machining center.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Besides, why are you consulting with a Luthier if CNC produced guitars are so much superior?
Again, you still have to have a luthier to do wood selection, fretting, finishing (in small runs), setup and assembly.... errr... did you miss that part? Read on... CNC's will never put truly talented luthiers out of business, they'll just continue to make better products available to more folks for LESS MONEY.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Is that Luthier going to be contracting the use of a CNC Machine?
He'll be getting use of the Cincinnati 3 axis mentioned above for free. The guitar will be 3D modeled using Unigraphics NX, cutter paths to be written by the shop that owns the machine... I forget what software they're using at the moment... might be SurfCam.

They do wood patterns already for prototype stamping tooling, so they've got the heads to change the tool speed to one suitable for cutting wood. Their cuts come out so clean in pattern mahogany that there's no hand sanding required - peak to peak ridges from cutting passes in the flat are less than .001" (depending on the tool selected), and form accuracy is +/- .0005". That would be +/- 5 TEN THOUSANDTHS of an inch.

To fit the neck (set-neck construction - as of today... but nobody is truly convinced yet that set-neck and neck-through are a huge advantage over bolt-on... millions and millions of Strat and Teles and Kramers are a pretty good indication that a bolt-on is the best choice in certain cases...), we're going to cut the pocket and neck line to line (exact same dimension... or maybe with the neck .001" or so oversize - we're mulling that one over right now...) and then put the neck in a refrigerator for a couple of hours. The cold will shrink the neck slightly and allow the two to slip together. Then, as the neck warms up, the it will expand to result in a perfect fit. The fit will be so tight, we may not need glue... we might add a couple of screws for retention, but they might be optional... have a human being try that one some time.

Sound unreal? I've seen it done in STEEL. That's exactly how guides for stamping presses are manufactured and installed - they're turned on CNC machinery, frozen, and then installed with zero clearance into a CNC machine hole. After they're installed, they can't be removed without machining them out because they behave like a press fit.

Great thing about the whole deal? We can crack them off by the hundred if we want, and every one of them will be dimensionally identical to the next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Or does he have one?
See above.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
However, a request: actually read what is written before making insultingly flippant remarks:
Oh, they're not flippant, they're well considered. You just get REALLY uptight when people don't agree with you and then you fire up the old vitriol.

Here's the first one I found odd:

"Basically, no Luthier that I know of uses a CNC machine, unless he got backing from investors to pay for one (they can run for $20K out of the box, not to mention the expense of programming it) and they were setting up production of one specific model of guitar, or making one specific part, or they got one for steal, perhaps even a homemade one (ironic, no?), or perhaps got a bank loan."

$20,000??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You can't buy one of the stepper motors on a decent CNC machining center for $20,000!

Anything used, with a big enough bed to handle a guitar body and with a current controller under around $100,000 is probably junk and needs a rebuild. Here's one that's gonna need some love (and a new head to get the spindle speeds up) that's 10 years old for the bargain price of $77,500... bed size is OK (25" in Y).

http://www.mortonmachinery.com/machi...0-25/5401.html

Then figure another $50,000 for software, a tube, tooling, etc...

Oh, and a whole bunch more for holding fixtures...

If you're doing ANYTHING funny with the shape of the instrument or want undercuts, you have to go 4 or 5 axis..... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Fact of the matter is this:

Little guys can't afford the equipment. You gotta sell a LOT of handmades to come up with the scratch to pay for a CNC machining center...



I found that to be a singularly preposterous statement, presented as fact, that had no bearing on reality.

So I read on... to this one...

"Now, how does using a Duplicarver differ from using a CNC machine if they both accomplish the same goal?"

Actually, it didn't seem anyone else was qualified to answer that, but the obvious fact of the matter (to anyone who knows anything about machining, that is...) that a Duplicarver has ZERO CHANCE IN THE WORLD of being as repeatable as a CNC machining center. NONE. ZERO. ZIP. NADA. No Duplicarver will EVER reach an accuracy under .001". Ain't happening. CNC machining centers do it with EVERY CUT, in EVERY AXIS, EVERY TIME.

Which then led to this:

"Machine-Made Guitars at Hand-Made Prices!?!"



And THAT'S where the light bulb went on. You didn't come up with this stuff, you're parroting Ed Roman. See, I know who ("what" might be a better word in this case...) Ed Roman is. I know how good old Eddie put the screws to BC Rich to make a buck. I also know that that's a direct quote of Ed's.

Here's one of the pearls from Eddie:

http://www.edromanguitars.com/rant/devilbuilds.htm

Note that guitars in the middle of the page are PRS hollowbodies on PRS's CNC machines.

Now, he linked that from Zachary, but the same nonsense was up on his page before, and you little line about handmade vs. machine-made is a dead-on quote of Roman.

You can also see another nice little parrot-job of yours from this rant here:

http://www.edromanguitars.com/rant/chains.htm


"I don't like snot nosed 17 year old clerks who think they are "Oh So Cool" because they work in a large music store."

Sounds kinda familiar... yeah, some of the words have changed, but the message is the same...


Here are some reviews of the vaunted "Quicksilver" line from good old Eddie...

http://www.harmony-central.com/Guita...silver-01.html

I wonder if the guy who got his credit card charged without receiving the guitar got his money back...

If you want to unload $2500+ for a guitar that needs a repairman to get playing right the MOMENT you receive it, in the words of Bob and the boys in Petra:

More power to ya.

Folks can decide for themselves who to believe, but I can tell you this:

Fender, for all the stuff you and Eddie say about them, BACKS THEIR STUFF. No arguments, no nonsense, call 'em with a problem with your American Standard Strat or Tele and they get you a local repairman to fix it LIKE NOW... my Tele cost a whopping $650 when purchased new, and has a LIFETIME construction warranty. Send Ed Roman $3000 for a guitar and apparently you get the runaround when you have a problem, which it seems like you've got a good chance of getting RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. If that's handmade quality, BRING ON THE ROBOTS!

If my choice is between a company that uses CNC machinery (which just happens to be FAR more accurate than any other method of cutting wood...) and getting world-class service (such as Fender, Gibson, Taylor, Martin and PRS provide) or having to deal with Ed Roman, or one of his minions, I'm going with Fender, thanks.


Edit notes: Fixed typos and missing link. NO, NOT THAT MISSING LINK - that one is still missing, presumed imaginary...

Last edited by PacerX; 01-24-2005 at 09:36 PM.
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Unread 01-25-2005, 12:23 PM   #104
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Jim Olson uses CNC!

http://www.olsonguitars.com/shop_fadal.html
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Unread 01-25-2005, 12:31 PM   #105
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Second paragraph pretty much says it all...
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