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Unread 12-20-2003, 08:52 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Major Tom
The whole piece is adjustable from front to back to compensate for different gauges.
Ah, I see...

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The only attempt at this price comparison was a base model Quicksilver at $1495 for a solid mahagony body, maple neck and tung oil finish - no figured maple, no mahogany neck, no stain, no glossy finish, etc., etc. Probably a wonderful instrument, but that guitar would be more analogous to a Gibson Les Paul Studio, or even one of their faded series as far as appointments. Apples to oranges. With comparable options, again , it was over 3 grand. in the same ballpark, yes, but a little more expensive. Even I am educated enough to recognize that. But that was the only one posted, and alas, none available locally for us to check out. They are pretty in the pictures, yes, but so is gilded chicken poop, and without being able to grab one of these handmade guits in a store and see if it withstands the drop-it-on-the-floor test, don't know if I really want one. Anyone on this board own one? What kind of resale value would one of these have?
Yes, I see that not many of us on the boards have hand-made guitars. I see how that could be a problem...

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Yes, there are replacements for those with the individual saddle adjustments, they have been made since the 70's as replacements for LP Jr. and other guitars with that style bridge, for those who want them.
Then what is the big deal about them not coming stock? It's like we know that most Fenders and Gibsons don't come with locking tuners or Strap-locks, but no one makes a big deal out of that.

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Yes, but I don't know if I could be trusted to do that
Pull old bridge off, put new bridge on. C'mon, a 3 yr old could do it!

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Well that was certainly more conjecture than fact on my part, since I have never bought any or researched its price. I saw a chunk for a solid body on ebay a few weeks ago, seems like the current bid was over $100.?... but still time left on the auction. Do you have some prices that you can post? As one example, Quicksilver charges $400 for a flame maple top, + $200 to glue it on... ouch. ( I think that's partly where I drew my "expensive" conclusion from) I think Forrest Gump said it best: "expensive is as expensive does".
A whole chunk of maple? I was thinking just the maple top.

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I must have been dreaming, I thought there was more than one post about how a luthier would inherently make a better instrument than a CNC equipped shop. Matter offact, I thought that's what this thread is about - CNC vs. Handmade, which is better, no? I would certainly equate "better" to higher quality, but then, I'm gettin' educated here.
I think I'm gonna look through this thread again...

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Who's "we"? There was some reference by someone in this thread that somehow real live luthiers can control the process of cutting out a body or whatever, and make some sort of adjustments in the process, therefore yielding a higher quality product. Someone also postulated that a luthier can do something in the shaping process that would somehow bring out the grain pattern better. I don't know if that was "we" who said that or not. I wasn't really addressing "we" since I wasn't aware there was a "we" I also remember stating that I didn't understand the mythical quality thing that "some" on this board spoke of, not "we".
Maybe that was a bad choice of words on my part.

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I doubt it, but It was somebody else's turn to watch their prices in that decade, and he is no longer with us. Did the end product change? I would guess that it did not change enough to warrant a price drop. Did the market for their product change? If PRS made capitol investments in a lot of expensive automated equipment, and larger facilities to house it, training employees, etc. I would guess that they would not have been able to at that time, but again, I don't know. Since the guitars seem to be essentially the same product as before, I would imagine that their plan was to expand production in order to achieve growth and greater profits providing the same product (not a cheaper version) since that is what businesses do. I don't imagine Mr. Smith is so magnanimous that he would put his company into debt for all the expensive tooling, etc. just to be able to lower prices on his products to make them more affordable to the uneducated masses who are already lined up to buy 'em.
So are you theorizing that as PRS's debts lower, the prices for the guitars will also lower as a result?

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A universal principle of business is that if you aren't growing/moving forward, you're slipping backwards. Another universal principle of any successful business is continuous improvement - same thing, if you aren't improving on your processes and product, you're going backwards. There is always competition wanting your market. Those 2 principles are not just my opinion, or conjecture on my part; any shrewd business owner or manager will tell you that. I can also tell you that with very few exceptions (like maybe Goodwill Industries), any manufacturer of any product is always looking for ways to cut costs in any way, shape, or form that does not detract value from the end product. That is what manufacturers do to stay healthy.
I totally agree.

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PRS is an American success story, just like Fender or Ford Motor Company. I don't understand why some (not "we") want to insinuate they are doing something wrong by charging too much for their products. It is an expensive niche product, if you don't think its worth the money, do something different - get your Mom to buy you something else. (did I type that out loud?) Heck, my brother in law paid almost as much for his big screen TV as a nice PRS costs. He watches network TV sitcoms on it! in another 10 years or so, it will be in a landfill, the PRS won't.
Sorry, my Mom won't buy me anything over $1,000...

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Again, I am not a staunch PRS supporter or champion, and certinly not an expert on them or their guitars, but I do like them, and I got nothin' better to do right now, isn't that kinda sad. ...note to self: get a life.... So excuse the overly long post...
Excused. This thread and the "Worst Advice" thread have all the longest posts I've ever seen. I was even surprised at how long mine was.

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HEY - nobody responded yet to my question about the "sour grapes"....hmmm....maybe I should start a separate thread, no ?
I'm sorry, but I don't have much to say about that.

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Handmade prices, Handmade prices, Handmade prices, production guitars at Handmade prices. There, I said it for you.


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Drat!, my delete key is not working today, I spilled coffee in the keyboard last night
No reason to cry over spilt milk coffee

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Unread 12-20-2003, 09:14 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Tom
I must have been dreaming, I thought there was more than one post about how a luthier would inherently make a better instrument than a CNC equipped shop. Matter offact, I thought that's what this thread is about - CNC vs. Handmade, which is better, no? I would certainly equate "better" to higher quality, but then, I'm gettin' educated here.
A part of the 10th post in this thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
No, but the question is, does the CNC machine know what kind of wood it's cutting? A CNC machine doesn't. Nor does a CNC operator. But a Luthier does.

A Luthier will have intimate knowledge of what each and ever hardwood species is like to carve, what they sound like, how best to bring out it's intrinsic qualities, how to combine it with other hardwoods/tonewoods to make a rich sonic palette and signature. A CNC operator will only know how to stick it in a CNC machine and press a button. And he'll probably know what it smells like when it's CNC'd - provided he even hangs out to watch over the process. Working CNC machines are a lot like running washing machines. You start them and they do their thing, whether you are there or not. Do you really think a CNC operator is going to vigilantly watch the machine to make sure it properly routs the guitar necks, as if it will be any different from the other 100 jobs it's done? They buy wood in bulk. If a neck blows out, they just chuck it and write it off.

Also, as great as Quilted and Flaming Maple are in terms of tonewood/topwood, they are actually pretty cheap. They are the cheapest woods of the exotic category. Not a big step for PRS or Gibson to carry those.

Also, while top Luthiers will tap test individual pieces of wood in order to match natural resonant frequencies, do you really think a CNC operator will do that?

Don't think so.
That may answer it...
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Unread 12-20-2003, 10:13 AM   #78
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As far as Flame tops go, Carvin charges $200 to put a flamed maple on your guitar, and $300-$320 to put a quilted maple top on.
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Unread 12-20-2003, 10:13 AM   #79
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Pull old bridge off, put new bridge on. C'mon, a 3 yr old could do it!
Yes, but would you allow the 3 year old to have a screwdriver - the courts of this land consider that to be a lethal weapon....

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A whole chunk of maple? I was thinking just the maple top.
That's what I meant, a chunk big enuf for the top of one carved-top guitar like a Les Paul. Something like 3/4' thick. Now that I think about it, it might have been quilted maple. I did not research it, but was merely relying on a couple things I had seen, especially the QS prices. What do you consider expensive for this? I would consider 75 bucks to be a very expensive component at the OEM cost level. Gotta add some labor on there too, unless they have one of those machines that you just drop all the components into a hopper, and it does the bandsawing, planing, joining, and glue up onto the substrate before it spits it out at the old CNC machine, where Goober Pyle press a button or 2. Or did I see that on the Jetsons... I would venture to say at that point it would be by far the single most expensive component on the thing. What were you basing this "not that expensive" statement on? Share the knowledge.

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Then what is the big deal about them not coming stock? It's like we know that most Fenders and Gibsons don't come with locking tuners or Strap-locks, but no one makes a big deal out of that.
Ain't a big deal to me, its a minor thing on an expensive guitar like that. Someone else put forth the opinion (or was it fact?) that PRS does this as a cost cutting (shudder...) measure. I can't imagine at an OEM level that there would be more than 3 or 4 dollars difference, but that is merely a guess on my part based on my limited manufacturing experience. I like 'em and would leave it on mine if I were ever fortunate enuf to acquire one.

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So are you theorizing that as PRS's debts lower, the prices for the guitars will also lower as a result?
Absolutely not, why should they? My wife and I lowered our debt by refinancing our house this past summer. Our monthly debt was reduced by about $500. I did NOT go to my employer and suggest that he lower my pay, even though I could afford a smaller paycheck in return for my time spent there. The smart thing for me to do at this point would be to store up some of that excess capitol and increase my net worth to help me weather any hard financial times in the future. Now if I could just convince my wife of that... Well, I did get a cool tele copy, a new(used) amp for my modding pleasure, and a couple other small things. Anyway, neither would any successful business owner lower prices after reducing debt unless that is what they needed to do sell product. The only way I would guess that PRS would lower prices is if the market starts to soften. Would you? If you were working part time to buy a new guit, or pay off a loan on one, and then paid it off, would you tell them that you would take a couple bucks less on the hour?

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Sorry, my Mom won't buy me anything over $1,000...
Think she would be interested in adopting me ? I get a kinda perverse kick out of cheapie guits - I could get 2 or 3 for that i am housebroken. Go tell your Mom right now how special she is, and how much you appreciate her. Seriously.

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I think I'm gonna look through this thread again...
Yeah, I thought that is what the whole thing was supposed to be about - is one better than the other. Better to me means a higher quality product. I thought that's what a few on this board were trying to prove; that handmade is inherently better/higher quality.

One thing that no one can dispute (well maybe someone will) that is a very desirable feature of the PRS over small shop guitars - they are in stock and available at local dealers everywhere. Anyone can go and give one the old heave-ho, if it doesn't bust, its a keeper. I could literally get in my car right now and go try out at least 50 of them today.

Try this next time you go to a music store; bring in a quiver of arrows, go over to the most expensive guitars they have, and start asking questions like "what is the amount of string tension on this model?"

Last edited by Major Tom; 12-20-2003 at 11:59 AM.
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Unread 12-20-2003, 10:43 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Major Tom
Yes, but would you allow the 3 year old to have a screwdriver - the courts of this land consider that to be a lethal weapon....
Dude, for Tune-O-Matic, you don't even need a screwdriver! The bridge is just mounted on two posts, and can be simply slipped on or off.

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That's what I meant, a chunk big enuf for the top of one carved-top guitar like a Les Paul. Something like 3/4' thick. I did not research it, but was merely relying on a couple things I had seen. What do you consider expensive for this? I would consider 75 bucks to be a very expensive component at the OEM cost level. I would venture to say at that point it would be the single most expensive component on the thing. What were you basing this "not that expensive" statement on? Share the prices
Sorry, that was an uneducated statement based on wat i've heard before. No facts on this guy.

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Ain't a big deal to me, its a minor thing on an expensive guitar like that. Someone else put forth the opinion (or was it fact?) that PRS does this as a cost cutting (shudder...) measure. I can't imagine at an OEM level that there would be more than 3 or 4 dollars difference, but that is merely a guess on my part based on my limited manufacturing experience. I like 'em and would leave it on mine if I were ever fortunate enuf to acquire one.
Well I don't like 'em, and I would leave any Tune-O-Matic on mine.

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Absolutely not, why should they? ... ... Would you? If you were working part time to buy a new guit, and then got it, would you tell them that you would take a couple bucks less on the hour?
Nope. Thanks for clarifing.

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Think she would be interested in adopting me ? I get a kinda perverse kick out of cheapie guits - I could get 2 or 3 for that i am housebroken.
No, unless you are a poor starving orphan from Southeast Asia. My parents want to adopt one someday. So don't get your hopes up.

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Yeah, I thought that is what the whole thing was supposed to be about - is one better than the other. Better to me means a higher quality product. I thought that's what a few on this board were trying to prove; that handmade is better/higher quality.
"Better" could also mean better value.

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One thing that no one can dispute (well maybe someone will) that is a very desirable feature of the PRS over small shop guitars - they are in stock and available at local dealers everywhere. Anyone can go and give one the old heave-ho, if it doesn't bust, its a keeper.
Yup. They are winners as one of the highest quality guitars as far as highly availible guitars go.

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Try this next time you go to a music store; bring in a quiver of arrows and start asking questions like "what is the amount of string tension on this model?"
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Unread 12-20-2003, 11:04 AM   #81
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Dude, for Tune-O-Matic, you don't even need a screwdriver! The bridge is just mounted on two posts, and can be simply slipped on or off.
If you want to intonate it you do, unless it takes an allen wrench or other type of tool. I do have a couple hammers too, in case I need one, or get reeeeeeeealy frustrated.

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Well I don't like 'em, and I would leave any Tune-O-Matic on mine.
Exactly - matter of taste/preference; merely a design choice.


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No, unless you are a poor starving orphan from Southeast Asia. My parents want to adopt one someday. So don't get your hopes up
That is so cool, I wish your family all the luck with that! My wife and I are in the process of adopting a baby, our niece Hannah, 1 year old last week who has lived with us for about 6 months. Her parents have issues, and can't take care of her. She is the best baby on the planet right now. No brag, just fact. Never had any kids before (I'm 48). Best thing that ever happened to us.
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Unread 12-20-2003, 11:21 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Major Tom
If you want to intonate it you do, unless it takes an allen wrench or other type of tool. I do have a couple hammers too, in case I need one, or get reeeeeeeealy frustrated.
I was referring to the replacement process, but for the actual intonation, yes you do need a screwdriver.

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Exactly - matter of taste/preference; merely a design choice.
Exactly.

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That is so cool, I wish your family all the luck with that! My wife and I are in the process of adopting a baby, our niece Hannah, 1 year old last week who has lived with us for about 6 months. Her parents have issues, and can't take care of her. She is the best baby on the planet right now. No brag, just fact. Never had any kids before (I'm 48). Best thing that ever happened to us.
(offtopic conversation...) I think it could be cool to have a little borther or sister to teach to play guitar. (as long as they din't get any better then me... )
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Unread 12-20-2003, 11:56 AM   #83
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(offtopic conversation...) I think it could be cool to have a little borther or sister to teach to play guitar. (as long as they din't get any better then me... )
My little Hannah loves music - stuff with a good beat and strong elec guit riffs; lots of roots rock stuff and misc rock, even some country, only if its got a cool guitar thang tho!. Buddy Holly, Beatles, U2, Journey, even some Hendrix. Her absolute favorite toy is a set of claves I cut from an old broom handle.- she loves to bang 'em with the music. Alright, so she may be a little rhythm-challenged, but she's only a year old. No skill but certainly has the passion.
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Unread 12-20-2003, 12:39 PM   #84
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Well I will say this....to some, it may seem that a handmade is a better guitar and for the most part I agree, but to say that the companies like PRS, Gibson, Fender and others who at one time DID make handmade instruments when they began their company and then switched over to CNC production had.... "sold out", I would strongly disagree!

Why? Because you can't "handmake" guitars and STILL be able to sell large volumes! You have to remember that these companies are world distributors.....and if you are going to make a guitar for an international market to sell on a large scale, you would be hardpressed to keep doing it by hand! The reason?? TIME! Yes, time. Look at what it takes to get a PRS guitar built right now....about 6 to 12 months IF you are lucky! Some get their order earlier, some get their order way later. Now, try to assume that everything is still handmade! You have just delayed the final date the guitar would have been made by a considerable amount of time! How much time?? That all depends.....what wood will you use? Will it be all hand selected? Will it have expensive inlays or bindings? Will it have a special finish that takes great time to make? All of these factors and others not mentioned will vary, but you can be assured that it will take a guitar far longer to do it all by hand, than it would with a CNC machine! Some would say, well that is fine I will wait....but that does not mean that dealers who can get other guitars produced faster would wait!

Weather you want to admit it or not, guitar manufacturers are in the business to MAKE A PROFIT! Now, does that mean that quality should suffer? Not if you still use quality parts and still have quality inspection on every instrument! You see, I don't buy into this old argument that if a guitar is not handmade, then it is not quality! The 1957 fender stratocasters WERE a production guitar, but look at what they are selling for at grhuns! MUCH more than any handmade guitar I can tell you that! Not to mention the fact that BB King started out with a Gibson ES 335! It was only YEARS later after he was well known that gibson made the Lucille! Jimi Hendrix played a fender strat onstage at the woodstock concert in the 60s! Eric Clapton plays a fender strat guitar that they mass produce RIGHT NOW! It has noiseless pickups and I have been told palys like a dream! And then you have others that have guitars that were not built by guitar manufacturer....but they built themselves! Like Brian May of Queen! Shalll I go on????

The people I have mentioned are all tops in their field and if owning or playing a production made guitar made their sound to suffer, I don't think they would have one! After all, it is not like they can't go and buy anything they want! Now, as far as these companies selling out and seemingly advertising their products as handmade or even implying that, I think is a misconception! Again, as with other posters, I have to say that I need proof shown to me, before I will believe that PRS, Gibson, Fender or any guitar manufacturer that used to handmake guitars, is still advertising that they still do! Implied or not! I simply have not seen any guitar ad in any magazine or other form of advertisment that would even imply such a thing! Like I said earlier...that would leave them wide open for a false advertising claim! (You can BET the lawyers of those guitar manufacturers know it too!)


Now adressing the "masses are just uneducated" theory, I still disagree! I have not seen one shred of evidence that suggests to me that people that buy high dollar guitars (not newbies...THAT is totally another thread!) are believing that the new PRS or whatever high dollar guitar they just bought, is totally handmade! Most players I know will take sone time, as I did, and try to learn as much about an instrument before making an inital purchase! This is ESPICALLY TRUE OF HIGH DOLLAR INSTRUMENTS AND HANDMADE INSTRUMENTS! Why? Because when people are investing in large sums of money, they are not very casual about it! Espically if it is money, like I invested in my PRS, that I could not replace without the help of insurance! You see, I work at a grocery stre chain called Krogers and don't make an exuberant amount of money...I have no major guitar manufacturer to give me my instruments so that I can endorse their product....neither do I have a major recording contract with a major label that I can just get any guitar I want to get! When I invested in my PRS, it was just that...AN INVESTMENT! I had to sell TWO guitars I owned(a reissue 57 fender strat and a Gibson Les Paul Studio) just to get the one I have! So you can BET your BIPPY that I researched it carefully before I bought my instrument! Most musicians are this way! They have no large sums of cash to throw away! Most "real" musicians before they are discovered have to live hand to mouth just to get by! So you can see why I find it insulting when I hear someone say that because they purchase a high dollar guitar such as a PRS, they are ignorant enogh to not take the time to research the instrument and find out if it is handmade! As far as that goes though, I really don't care if it is or not! It is the feel and playability...not being handmade, that made my choice for me after trying out various other similar instruments! And I DID NOT go into it thinking I was getting a handmade guitar! As I said, most that invest this kind of money, don't have the luxury of just wasting their money on high dollar purchases that they can just discard! That PRS is my go-to main guitar and even though I have others, I still always come back to it!


Now as adressing the question why are PRS and other high dollar guitar owners semmingly defending their purchases? Well I think that the other post by Major Tom could have answered that well. It is a trend I have seen not only on this board, but on others. And I have seen it time and time again. Example: some guy posts about his new Fender Strat or Les Paul, etc. that he bought at such and such.....everybody is really glad and thinks he made an excellent purchase....but then take someone who purchases a PRS, Driskill, or any other handmade or high dollar production guitar, I don't really know why, haven't figured it out yet, but it seems unless he is already on a board like birds and moons who already have high dollar guitars they are discussing, that somehow he is alienated from the rest! Again, DON'T ask me to explain it! I really am having a hard time figuring out that one myself! As far as production guitars, I have been playing them all of my life! My first REAL production guitar made in the USA was....don't laugh.....a peavey T-15 with molded case! (I said don't laugh! HE! HE! ) From there I went up to the higher quality Gibson and Fenders. This PRS is the first high dollar production guitar I have ever had! But when people talk about getting a new Fender Squire and are excited about it, I can really be excited for them, because I have been there! I don't remember EVER looking down my nose at som,eone who had a Fender Squire while I had my Fender 57 Reissue! Did mine cost more? SURE! But since WHEN did that give me the right, to look down my nose at another who had a guitar that sold for less than mine did!??? Same goes for all these people with high dollar guitars and who look down on people that have less that what they consider a good quality instrument! It just isn't right! Period! I hope now that I have a good quality instrument, I will still remember the days that I did not have nor could afford a high dollar instrument....mabye that will keep me humble.....I hope so anyway!


Some would argue that because they started out by doing it by hand that they should keep on doing it by hand! I also disagree! When PRS, Gibson, fender you name it started out, it is assumed that they didn't start out as the mega giants they are today! Most, like Leo Fender for example started small in his radio and television shop where he began to experiment with making an electric guitar which was very uncommon in those days, but just because they STARTED OUT that way, I don't believe that they should necissarly have to STAY that way! Just my thoughts!

Last edited by webe123; 12-20-2003 at 12:48 PM.
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Unread 12-20-2003, 01:35 PM   #85
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First off, DEEP breath. I get the impression that you are seething at us when we are here to have a friendly debate about guitars. Just because we disagree doesn't mean we can't be friendly.

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Originally Posted by webe123
Well I will say this....to some, it may seem that a handmade is a better guitar and for the most part I agree, but to say that the companies like PRS, Gibson, Fender and others who at one time DID make handmade instruments when they began their company and then switched over to CNC production had.... "sold out", I would strongly disagree!
I don't remember anyone saying they "sold out".

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You see, I don't buy into this old argument that if a guitar is not handmade, then it is not quality!
I addressed this on the last page.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PianoMan
I think there is something being misunderstood here. I think I speak for both Chesh and I when I say that we never said that CNC machines are of lesser quality then handmade guitars. What is being said is that companies are using CNC machines, then charging handmade prices for them. Though I actually think that handmade costs more.

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Now adressing the "masses are just uneducated" theory, I still disagree! I have not seen one shred of evidence that suggests to me that people that buy high dollar guitars (not newbies...THAT is totally another thread!) are believing that the new PRS or whatever high dollar guitar they just bought, is totally handmade! Most players I know will take some time, as I did, and try to learn as much about an instrument before making an inital purchase! This is ESPICALLY TRUE OF HIGH DOLLAR INSTRUMENTS AND HANDMADE INSTRUMENTS!
It sounds like you are going off on two different points here. I don't believe that anyone said those buying expensive instruments didn't research. What I am saying is that in many cases, those getting high end instruments either don't know that there are brands other than the big ones, or don't think that they are as good because they aren't as big as Fender/Gibson/PRS etc.

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My first REAL production guitar made in the USA was....don't laugh.....a peavey T-15 with molded case! (I said don't laugh! HE! HE! ) From there I went up to the higher quality Gibson and Fenders. This PRS is the first high dollar production guitar I have ever had! But when people talk about getting a new Fender Squire and are excited about it, I can really be excited for them, because I have been there! I don't remember EVER looking down my nose at som,eone who had a Fender Squire while I had my Fender 57 Reissue! Did mine cost more? SURE! But since WHEN did that give me the right, to look down my nose at another who had a guitar that sold for less than mine did!??? Same goes for all these people with high dollar guitars and who look down on people that have less that what they consider a good quality instrument! It just isn't right! Period! I hope now that I have a good quality instrument, I will still remember the days that I did not have nor could afford a high dollar instrument....mabye that will keep me humble.....I hope so anyway!
When did it ever sound like we look down on those with guitars that aren't as nice as others? I think I can speak for all here when I say that we would never do that because we were all there at some point.


Quote:
Some would argue that because they started out by doing it by hand that they should keep on doing it by hand! I also disagree! When PRS, Gibson, fender you name it started out, it is assumed that they didn't start out as the mega giants they are today! Most, like Leo Fender for example started small in his radio and television shop where he began to experiment with making an electric guitar which was very uncommon in those days, but just because they STARTED OUT that way, I don't believe that they should necissarly have to STAY that way! Just my thoughts!
I agree. I think that the big companies should be in place. If all guitars were handmade, then those of us who don't have/make much money would never be able to own a guitar unless we built it ourselves. (Not that that is such a bad thing )

I just object to the reasoning that the big companies are the absolute best, because they aren't. They don't give the customization and special details that good handmade guitars do. I think of high-end PRS'/Fenders/Gibbys as high end guitars, but I think of top-notch handmade guitars as the absolute high-enders.
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Unread 12-20-2003, 03:26 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PianoMan
First off, DEEP breath. I get the impression that you are seething at us when we are here to have a friendly debate about guitars. Just because we disagree doesn't mean we can't be friendly.



I don't remember anyone saying they "sold out".



I addressed this on the last page.





It sounds like you are going off on two different points here. I don't believe that anyone said those buying expensive instruments didn't research. What I am saying is that in many cases, those getting high end instruments either don't know that there are brands other than the big ones, or don't think that they are as good because they aren't as big as Fender/Gibson/PRS etc.



When did it ever sound like we look down on those with guitars that aren't as nice as others? I think I can speak for all here when I say that we would never do that because we were all there at some point.




I agree. I think that the big companies should be in place. If all guitars were handmade, then those of us who don't have/make much money would never be able to own a guitar unless we built it ourselves. (Not that that is such a bad thing )

I just object to the reasoning that the big companies are the absolute best, because they aren't. They don't give the customization and special details that good handmade guitars do. I think of high-end PRS'/Fenders/Gibbys as high end guitars, but I think of top-notch handmade guitars as the absolute high-enders.

Look, in the first place I am not seething at anyone, but I do see you have edited out a thread that I took great time to write! I thought that mods were SUPPOSED to be "in the middle" when it came to disputes? Why then, did you not edit any of cheshire cats posts? To me, it seems unfair!

Secondly, I am sorry that any dispute took place between me and chesh in the first place, but I have to tell you that I did not appreciate how he was comming across in his attitude, but again, those are his views and he is entitled to them.


As far as anybody not mentioning "selling out"? : Cheshire Cat page 4quote) Yes, they do.

In every instance where a guitar company sold out, they first started their agressive cost-cutting campaign by using CNC's. As I illustrated in my story, that's where it starts. As I have also illustrated in my other story, once they start using the CNC, the other cost-cutting opportunities are so tempting. Very.(end quote)

Now...Piano man....what was it you said about nobody ever mentioning... "sold out"... in these threads?? Gibson, Fender and PRS all have done what he has said and used CNC machines! I still don't think they "sold out"!

As far as your point about people with high end instruments, to me, if they spend that much money and do not take the time as I did to do some simple reasearch, then it is their fault if they end up with an overpriced or crappy guitar. And IF you DO research it, why then would you not know there are other brands are available? Or even worse, think that PRS, Gibson or Fender is simply better because of a namesake? To me, the people that do their homework are the ones that find out about other brands in the process. Example: You can type in PRS in google and it will bring up all kinds of things about high end guitars! Not just PRS!


As far as "looking down your nose" at someone, I did not say you did it or chesh or anyone paticular on this board,did I?? I said I have seen it! And I have! And it is wrong!



Finally about the handmade makers, yes they do seem to put the best quality in their work, but that is not to say that high end makers like the ones you mentioned do not either! And as far as believing that the major manufacturers are the absolute best?? I never said that they were. All I said was that yes, those makers like PRS Gibson and Fender DID make all of their instruments by hand, but now just because they try to market their product to the masses, does that make them a sell out? I don't think so. You have to remember that PRS has private stock and Gibson and Fender still have their custom shops....so if everything was just going to be stock production....why have those specialty shops?? Because I believe that they still want to keep their niche market while at the same time be able to sell to the masses!
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Unread 12-20-2003, 05:08 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webe123
Look, in the first place I am not seething at anyone, but I do see you have edited out a thread that I took great time to write! I thought that mods were SUPPOSED to be "in the middle" when it came to disputes? Why then, did you not edit any of cheshire cats posts? To me, it seems unfair!
Well the tone you are typing these posts in suggest that you are "seething". Please consider re-evaluating the angle you are coming at.

Quote:
Secondly, I am sorry that any dispute took place between me and chesh in the first place, but I have to tell you that I did not appreciate how he was comming across in his attitude, but again, those are his views and he is entitled to them.
I'm sure he didn't appreciate your attitude either. But as we are all entitled to our opinions, some of us may come across better then others. If you would like to avoid another dispute, again, please re-evaluate your tone.

Quote:
Now...Piano man....what was it you said about nobody ever mentioning... "sold out"... in these threads?? Gibson, Fender and PRS all have done what he has said and used CNC machines! I still don't think they "sold out"!
Has their quality level dropped? They may not have "sold-out", but have they possibly let some quality go down the drain?

Quote:
As far as your point about people with high end instruments, to me, if they spend that much money and do not take the time as I did to do some simple reasearch, then it is their fault if they end up with an overpriced or crappy guitar. And IF you DO research it, why then would you not know there are other brands are available? Or even worse, think that PRS, Gibson or Fender is simply better because of a namesake? To me, the people that do their homework are the ones that find out about other brands in the process. Example: You can type in PRS in google and it will bring up all kinds of things about high end guitars! Not just PRS!
It is their fault for not doing research. Your PRS is probably the guitar that you really wanted and you will probably stick with it a while. But this has nothing to do with "them". It has to do with whether the company should or shouldn't give them an overpriced or crappy guitar in the first place.

More later...
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Unread 12-20-2003, 05:29 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webe123
Look, in the first place I am not seething at anyone, but I do see you have edited out a thread that I took great time to write! I thought that mods were SUPPOSED to be "in the middle" when it came to disputes? Why then, did you not edit any of cheshire cats posts? To me, it seems unfair!
I didn't edit anything you actually wrote. Aside that, if you have a problem with the way I do things feel free to PM me and we can discuss it in private.

Quote:
As far as anybody not mentioning "selling out"? : Cheshire Cat page 4quote) Yes, they do.

In every instance where a guitar company sold out, they first started their agressive cost-cutting campaign by using CNC's. As I illustrated in my story, that's where it starts. As I have also illustrated in my other story, once they start using the CNC, the other cost-cutting opportunities are so tempting. Very.(end quote)

Now...Piano man....what was it you said about nobody ever mentioning... "sold out"... in these threads?? Gibson, Fender and PRS all have done what he has said and used CNC machines! I still don't think they "sold out"!
I did miss that, please excuse me for that. On the post itself, I do not agree with it. While I think some companies have cost-cut some over the years, and have had quality issues, I don't think that it is as bad as it has been made out to be.

Quote:
As far as your point about people with high end instruments, to me, if they spend that much money and do not take the time as I did to do some simple reasearch, then it is their fault if they end up with an overpriced or crappy guitar.
Which is why there are so many people here that answer every "what guitar shoud I buy" thread. They want to prevent this kind of thing from happening.

Quote:
And IF you DO research it, why then would you not know there are other brands available? Or even worse, think that PRS, Gibson or Fender is simply better because of a namesake? To me, the people that do their homework are the ones that find out about other brands in the process. Example: You can type in PRS in google and it will bring up all kinds of things about high end guitars! Not just PRS!
I agree that if someone does basic research, then they should be able to figure it out that there are other brands besides the big guys. The problem is, because the big ones spend so much money on ads and getting famous players to use their stuff in public, the average consumer will not be real willing to look elsewhere.

Go to the reviews at HarmonyCentral.com and browse by manufactorers. There are hundred's of brands. Think of it from the average person's point of view. Unless I had a lot of free time, or I REALLY liked researching so much, I would be put off by the sheer nuimber of brands. I would rather go to the store and pick up a brand that I know about, cause they must be good if they became so big right?

Quote:
As far as "looking down your nose" at someone, I did not say you did it or chesh or anyone paticular on this board,did I?? I said I have seen it! And I have! And it is wrong!
I never suggested that you had, and I am truly sorry if anything we said sounded like that. To be honest, I don't know how this subject even came up.

Quote:
Finally about the handmade makers, yes they do seem to put the best quality in their work, but that is not to say that high end makers like the ones you mentioned do not either! And as far as believing that the major manufacturers are the absolute best?? I never said that they were. All I said was that yes, those makers like PRS Gibson and Fender DID make all of their instruments by hand, but now just because they try to market their product to the masses, does that make them a sell out? I don't think so. You have to remember that PRS has private stock and Gibson and Fender still have their custom shops....so if everything was just going to be stock production....why have those specialty shops?? Because I believe that they still want to keep their niche market while at the same time be able to sell to the masses!
I actually disagree that manufactorers put their very best into every product. Look back over time and you can see some cost cutting that does nothing but increase profits. Just about every major manufactorer I know of has stopped using Mother of Pearl or abalone inlay, and started using cheaper substitutes. While I think that this is a good thing since it keeps the creatures that they get these materials from from going extinct, there was never any price cut when they did this, even though they started saving mass amounts of money. And look at Gibson - in the last few years they have had massive quality control issues over poor wiring/pickups/setup.

One more thing to say. Yes PRS has its Private Stock. It is extremely hard and extremely expensive to have them do what you would like though. Fender's Custom Shop is (from what I see on their website) nothing more then where they produce signature guitars, and slight variations, all that asre avalible to the mass public. I cannot comment on Gibson, as I know nothing about their custom shop.

The only way I know of to get a major brand to custom make a guitar for you is if you are a famous guiatrist and they approach you offering to build a "prototype" for your own personal use. Of course this includes you then being sponsered by them and not being allowed to use anything but their guitars in public.
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Unread 12-20-2003, 07:22 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webe123
Finally about the handmade makers, yes they do seem to put the best quality in their work, but that is not to say that high end makers like the ones you mentioned do not either!
I agree with PianoMan. I don't believe they put their best into every product.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PianoMan
I actually disagree that manufactorers put their very best into every product. Look back over time and you can see some cost cutting that does nothing but increase profits. Just about every major manufactorer I know of has stopped using Mother of Pearl or abalone inlay, and started using cheaper substitutes.
Well I don't think they stop using it. They do use it, but at an extra cost to the consumer.

Quote:
And look at Gibson - in the last few years they have had massive quality control issues over poor wiring/pickups/setup.
Yes, my own Gibson had poor wiring for the neck pickup. But then again, that ended up in savings for me for a slightly "flawed" product. Quickly fixed with a little solder.

Quote:
And as far as believing that the major manufacturers are the absolute best?? I never said that they were.
And no one said you did.

Quote:
All I said was that yes, those makers like PRS Gibson and Fender DID make all of their instruments by hand, but now just because they try to market their product to the masses, does that make them a sell out? I don't think so. You have to remember that PRS has private stock and Gibson and Fender still have their custom shops....so if everything was just going to be stock production....why have those specialty shops?? Because I believe that they still want to keep their niche market while at the same time be able to sell to the masses!
Calling them "sell-outs" is a bit of an exaggeration, but you really can't deny there is some truth to that. As far as their Custom Shops, I agree with PianoMan. They are extremely hard to contact. They also don't have nearly as much experience then the small specialty shops.
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Unread 12-20-2003, 10:52 PM   #90
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Short partial reponse. (more detailed forthcoming)

Quote:
webe123 said:
Look, in the first place I am not seething at anyone, but I do see you have edited out a thread that I took great time to write! I thought that mods were SUPPOSED to be "in the middle" when it came to disputes? Why then, did you not edit any of cheshire cats posts? To me, it seems unfair!
Actually, webe, he edited me as well, which initially put me off until I realized that he just eliminated two lines of "expression" and didn't touch anything else. He's a Mod. Fair's fair. No one's zeroing in on you.

Chesh
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