Go Back   Christian Guitar Forum > Musicians > Guitar
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Arcade Mark Forums Read

Reply
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 12-05-2003, 07:52 PM   #46
I play Guitar...
 
PianoMan's Avatar
 

Joined: Jun 2002
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,864
I think something we need to remember when discussing this is that the body itself is not the only thing affected between the two. CNC machines do make their things very well, as do luthiers handcarving their guitars. One major division between them is the setup and customization thereof.

Major guitar companies today have signed deals with part makers to exclusively use their bridges/tuners etc. and many guitar companies are making their own pickups. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with this, and the parts they use are generally good quality and the pickups sound good, but they arewn't the best. Besides this, the buyer has no say in what parts go into their guitars (unless they buy and install the parts afterwards)/

With (at least most) handmade guitars, a buyer would be able to choose the exact parts they use, the color of the guyitar, the inlay etc. From this one can get the exact combination they want without having to do extra shopping/work. Also, handmade guitars are often made from higher quality woods as the luthier generally handpicks the wood they buy while major companies buy mass amounts at a time.

Now you might say that the prices between the two kinds of guitars are vastly different with handmade being way higher. I won't deny that handmade guitars are more expensive, but not as much as you might think. When I was last at Guitar Center, most Gibson LP's I saw were in the $2000-$3000 range, with a few that cost over $4,000 (though it wouldn't be too hard to talk them down several hundred). For A little under $3000 I could get a handmade JET guitar with my choice of wood, color, pickups, bridge style, neck width/depth and several other things. (I will say that some options cost extra such as piezo pickups, MIDI, 5 piece necks, some fingerboard woods, etc.) Overall I would rather get the JET because I know I will get more bang for the buck. Yes I would have to wait for it to be built, and it would have to be shipped to me, but I think it would be worth it.

I hope I won't be taken as hypocritical or closed minded in this. I do acknowledge that CNC made guitars are very good guitars, I just don't think they are as good.

Thats my .05$

(And I hopefully didn't go too off topic )

__________________
Guitars: Burtone Telecaster, Duesenberg Starplayer DTV, Carvin Contour 66, Rettler OM Acoustic
Amp/Effects: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx II, QSC K10 Amp
PianoMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Unread 12-05-2003, 07:57 PM   #47
The Chameleon
 
Shredcheddar's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2002
Location: College Station, Texas
Posts: 5,091
Send a message via AIM to Shredcheddar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainer123
I also think that this discussion is about how the manufacture affects the tone, feel, playability, and looks. So everything is generally affected by the manufacture.
That's nice, but that's like ignoring the finished guitar in itself and impying that handmade automatically equals surperior tone and playablity (at least from where you seem to be coming from). My point is exactly that no matter how it is manufactured and no matter what materials are used, those qualities will manifest themselves to the customer in the form of the finished guitar. There is no real use analyzing the process of manufacture, whether the guitar performs to what the work merits is totally irrelevant.. I'm saying my focus is not on manufacture, I focus on what I get when I buy the guitar.
__________________
<center>Polar bears use camoflauge to catch their daily meal.
Shredcheddar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-06-2003, 09:42 AM   #48
I'm on a horse.
 
Rainer.'s Avatar
 

Joined: Jun 2003
Location: Seattle, WA.
Posts: 29,118
Send a message via AIM to Rainer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PianoMan
Now you might say that the prices between the two kinds of guitars are vastly different with handmade being way higher. I won't deny that handmade guitars are more expensive, but not as much as you might think. When I was last at Guitar Center, most Gibson LP's I saw were in the $2000-$3000 range, with a few that cost over $4,000 (though it wouldn't be too hard to talk them down several hundred). For A little under $3000 I could get a handmade JET guitar with my choice of wood, color, pickups, bridge style, neck width/depth and several other things. (I will say that some options cost extra such as piezo pickups, MIDI, 5 piece necks, some fingerboard woods, etc.) Overall I would rather get the JET because I know I will get more bang for the buck. Yes I would have to wait for it to be built, and it would have to be shipped to me, but I think it would be worth it.

Then you get to paying hand-made prices for guitars that are obviously not hand-made. Gibsons also have a reputation for overpricing their guitars like PRS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shred
That's nice, but that's like ignoring the finished guitar in itself and impying that handmade automatically equals surperior tone and playablity (at least from where you seem to be coming from). My point is exactly that no matter how it is manufactured and no matter what materials are used, those qualities will manifest themselves to the customer in the form of the finished guitar. There is no real use analyzing the process of manufacture, whether the guitar performs to what the work merits is totally irrelevant.. I'm saying my focus is not on manufacture, I focus on what I get when I buy the guitar.
I didn't say anything about Handmade vs. CNC in that statement. Read it again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rainer123
I also think that this discussion is about how the manufacture affects the tone, feel, playability, and looks. So everything is generally affected by the manufacture.
I said that the manufacture generally affects the finished product. Not CNC yields a worse guitar. Nor did I say hand-made yields a better guitar.

So what do you say are the components that go into a superior guitar? And what part of that is the manufacture?
__________________
. . . j o n : [ FLICKR \ BLOG ]

Rainer. is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-18-2003, 01:50 AM   #49
Registered User
 
CheshireCat's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2001
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 6,317
Quote:
OK, I have a question for you, CC; You have mentioned the "CNC'd guitars at handmade prices" thing quite a few times, especially in reference to PRS guitars. It seems like this is something that you have taken great umbrage about, so you must be familiar with prices of real handmade guitars. I really have no idea what kind of prices luthier made instruments are selling for, since I never see any for sale anywhere.
I take major umbrage over this. We are not talking about cranking out cost-effective guitars - machine-made guitars at machine-made prices. We are talking about largely machine made guitars at artificially high, hand-made prices, being sold to a largely uneducated buying public. I want to change that with these posts.

Now, the list is forthcoming, tho I have been mega-busy at work. I'm going to give about as thorough an answer as I can in this post.

Quote:
How much would the equivalent of, say a PRS that I see at GC for around $2500 to $2700, cost from a luthier-made instrument shop?
Well, depends on all the options, like choice of topwood, pickups, and so on. But, that said, and as I mentioned before, if you had a PRS and a Luthiered, Handmade guitar with equivalent features, the fair-market value of the handmade guitar would be half the price of the PRS!!! No joke.

As a way of comparison, I can do no better than use Ed Roman's comparison of a PRS and Ed's Quicksilver, which he first made to replace the best PRS model they ever had, and invaribly discontinued. He wanted to fill the niche left by the old, handmade PRS. He ended up superceding it. BTW, this isn't a pitch or advert for Ed. Anything but! It just so happens that this is a perfect example of the dichotomy and disparity that we are talking about here. Anyway, go here for the comparison: http://www.edroman.com/tech/compare/qsg_prs.htm

I would love to reprint it here, but it's in a tabled format, and I can't recreate that here. Perhaps in the future I can do a more comprehensive, graphic comparison.

Also, I've included a link to a comprehensive price-list of the Quicksilvers, so you can see what a Luthier would charge. Now, the prices are a little padded, only because Ed has a store to run and employees to pay, but this still gives you a rough idea.

Quicksilvers are far superior guitars to PRS's. Several of the advantages include heeless bolt-in necks or set necks, vs. PRS's Heel from Hell. Second, a full, high quality Tone Pros Tune-o-Matic Bridge and Tailpiece set, vs. PRS's cheesy wraparound one-piece, which has absolutely no advantage over the TOM bridge except for cutting costs in increase PRS's bottom line. Third, they come with Duncan Blackbacks, which are far superior to anything that PRS makes. Duncan is the top passive pickup manufacturer in the world, rivaled by only EMG, tho EMG makes active the best. All this plus tons more standard features I don't have the space to list.

All that, here's a final price analysis of a Quicksilver with the basics that a PRS has. Out the door, the Quicksilver is $1495 compared to PRS's $2500 to $2700, and is twice the guitar. And the Quicksilver has tons of options, more than PRS would ever dream of offering. How many options? Go here and see it for yourself! http://www.edroman.com/guitar/quicksilver/price_qsg.htm

Now, like I said, this is not to advertise Ed, per se. This is just to illustrate a point, but understand, we could go on like this about tons of Luthiers and Boutique Guitar outfits.

Why not compare Heritage Guitars to Gibson, for instance? Heritage guitars are handmade guitars from the original luthiers who handmade the Gibsons in the original Kalamazoo factory decades ago. How's that for a price comparison. I'll see if I can post something to that effect.

Quote:
And are there any websites that you could post?
* The Alembic sites I listed are excellent.
* Ed's site is excellent in terms of info. I listed some links. In fact, most all the guitars that Ed carries would qualify.
* Here's Heritage's site. http://www.heritageguitar.com/ Think of them as pre-corporate sell-out Gibson, because that's exactly what they are. You might even feel the ghost of Orville Gibson in there, like in that new car commercial.
* Ken Parker uses some CNC to do the really challenging and sophisticated work, but he still works very much like a handmade luthier. More on that later.
* JET Guitars are a totally perfect example of what we are talking about here. Jeffrey Earle Terwilliger is a single luthier who makes all his guitars himself. Here's his website: http://www.jetguitars.com/
* To the best of my knowledge, Warrior still makes their guitars and basses by hand. Also, they are only available in a guitar boutique here in Dallas, so that leads me to think that they are keeping it quality, not quantity. http://www.warriorinstruments.com

Those are some websites to give you some ideas of what a Handmade, "Luthiered" (to coin a term) guitar operation looks like.

Quote:
How are handmade guitars sold - direct from the shop, or do they work thru brokers, or whatever?
Usually, just wherever you get them. Most often direct from the maker, often on a contract basis, or thru a guitar boutique. Any Luthier will take direct orders, and in fact that's how most of them get work.

The above websites will also yield more insight into this.

Quote:
Now, certainly it would have to be a similar instrument to be a good comparison; not a bolt-on neck strat style, but a set-neck instrument with a mahogany body/neck and all the fru-fru aesthetics like binding, flamed maple top, and fancy inlays.
Well, as Gibson and PRS so eloquently demonstrate, a set-neck instrument with a mahogany body/neck and all the fru-fru aesthetics like binding, flamed maple top, and fancy inlays doesn't constitute a quality instrument. That's very easily done, and is done a lot. Also, there are no advantages in a set-neck over a bolt-on. A bolt-on is still an excellent way to join a neck to the body, and a heeless bolt-in is even better.

Either way, the PRS vs. QS comparison I gave above fit the bill.

Quote:
BTW, I was not making any negative reference to handicapped people whatsoever - merely posing the question for the sake of argument,
That's fine. I just wanted to be sure.

Quote:
if a piece of computer controlled equipment were used to perform a task as an accomodation for a handicapped luthier person, would that negate the hand-made status of the instrument?
Well, simply put, yes. But if a Luthier is paraplegic, he or she's still good to go. If he's quadrapelgic, then he may not even manage to hit the button on the CNC machine. Either way, it's a moot point.

Quote:
The point was that it's not the tools used, but the people controlling the process... dead horse at this point in the thread.
Well, dead horse or not, it's a rather absurd conjecture. Being that he's quadraplegic, he's not controlling much of anything, unless he's telling someone else to run the CNC machine. But, to the best of my knowledge, GoodWill Industries hasn't branched out into Lutherie. They do incredible work, and if you want to make a difference in your community, contract your work out to them. You'd be utterly amazed by the results!! But, as it is, Lutherie isn't one of the industries they deal in. And if it was, I don't think they would have the quads doing that particular work. The paraplegics, OTOH? I could definitely see that, tho where it would go from there would be anyone's guess. But we digress . . .

Quote:
O.K., I'll define 'carefully prepared and selected', since it was my post you were quoting (at that point anyway): I meant a luthier selecting the wood the same way they would if hand carving it, except then feeding it to the CNC machine, then hand joining the neck and body, smoothing various surfaces as appropriate, etc. Note that I didn't say that major guitar manufacturer XYZ does this in today's manufacturing industry, I was saying that if wood were selected appropriately the results could be the same whether then CNC'd or handcarved, because either way that is only one step in the process (and I was making the assumption that the other steps were done correctly and not by cheap labour just off the boat that morning). Don't try and relate that back to PRS or anyone else, just consider the process itself.
Okay, first, how can I not relate this back to PRS or Gibby or Fendy and so on? It's their practices we are referring to, and others of their ilk. They are the ones, afterall, who are selling Machine-Made Guitars at Hand-Made Prices. [Well, sold thru GC at their established list-price range, yadda 3.]

Now, if you, for the sake of totally conjuctured, unrelated argument, want to talk about CNC's by themselves, then okay, let's look at your postulate.

Quote:
I meant a luthier selecting the wood the same way they would if hand carving it, except then feeding it to the CNC machine
First of all, a Luthier wouldn't. He couldn't afford a CNC at $200K a pop. He would have to crank out 100's of guitars to amortize the cost and still put bread on the table. Second, he wouldn't want to because he only has the quality card to play, and his customers would wonder why they were expected to pay his reasonable price of $7K for his reputedly hand-made guitars, having found out they were machine-made. Third, the body carving is very straightforward, and a CNC would not appreciably decrease his workload, but would cause him to lose some major rep.

Now, that said, let's say he somehow comes upon a CNC. Okay, fine. The minute that he loads the woodblank into the CNC, he loses all control over the process. If he makes a mistake, he can adjust. If something goes wrong with the CNC, like a blade or router bit toasts out, or travels on him, or whatever, then that expensive wood toasts out, the body is shot, and he has to literally start over from scratch.

Now, assuming all goes well, and all his measurements are exact, and the machine behaves, then the final result will be about the same, but, then again, all that can be accomplished on a Duplicarver. Here, he maintains total control, can stop the process at the first sign of trouble, and it is just as easy. Tho, granted, if you're lazy, it is easier just to load a woodblank, press a button, and just babysit the machine. Try saying that with pride! "Are you a Luthier?" "No! I'm a CNC babysitting! Cool, eh?"

Will wood get routed away, rendering the contour of a body in both scenarios? Yes. Is that the point? No. More later. . .

Quote:
Note that I didn't say that major guitar manufacturer XYZ does this in today's manufacturing industry
But that's the whole point. XYZ Guitars Inc. cranking out Machine-Made guitars, insinuating that they are Hand-Made, and then charging Luthier prices for them.

Quote:
I was saying that if wood were selected appropriately the results could be the same whether then CNC'd or handcarved, because either way that is only one step in the process (and I was making the assumption that the other steps were done correctly and not by cheap labour just off the boat that morning).
Well, like I said, that's the whole point.

Now, that said, there are companies who hand-make their guitars totally to custom spec who use CNC's for more intricate work where high tolerances are required, often in cases where their work is known for it's exquisite attention to detail. Like Alembic and Parker for example. They are known for their high tech approaches and radical innovation. They have tons of patents on said technology, and are entitled to use CNC technology to produced equally technologically advanced guitars. A CNC Machine rendering a Gibby or Prissy carved top does not fall into this category. Not even close. And not on the order of mass production they do. Even with the CNC, a custom Alembic, on a good day, will still take about 1.5 to 2 months to finish. Not a few days or a week.

Quote:
Don't try and relate that back to PRS or anyone else, just consider the process itself.
Well, that's a lot like trying to present Hamlet without the Danish Prince anywhere to be seen.

Quote:
I won't bother replying to your lecture on how a luthier selects wood other than to say that you've made some rather big assumptions about what your audience does and doesn't know, and that quite a lot of what you mentioned is what I meant by 'carefully selected' anyway.
Well, how am I supposed to know that? I learned long ago never to assume anything in this context. Also, while you may, indeed, know this, many don't and that was written in part for their benefit. It also illustrated my point, which was my goal. Also, you had some contradictions and inconsistancies in your statements which I felt were relevant, especially the vague, general, ambiguous implication that a CNC operator would select/prep the wood like a Luthier wood. As I illustrated, not true.

Quote:
To make my original argument another way, let's say I have a luthier select enough wood for two guitars which he or she intends to be identical (in as far as two guitars can be). I'll then have the luthier cut one guitar body with the CNC and the other by hand, then join and finish both guitars by hand. I'll then show you both guitars and leave you to say which is which. Sure they won't be 100% identical because they're made of wood, and perhaps you'll have a strong preference for the way one of them feels (though someone else might prefer the other one) or perhaps you will like them equally. But to say which is the CNC one? I don't think you could.
First, join and finish? Like "select/prep", please define your usage.

Second, "But to say which is the CNC one? I don't think you could." That remains to be seen. I probably could because I've been in this game a long time.

Ultimately, I don't get your point. Sure, a CNC machine can be used to carve a body. It could be used to make the entire guitar. Just readjust the list price range accordingly, just like every other industry known to man.

Quote:
Quote:
I said:
CNC machines aren't bad in and of themselves, but, as mentioned, they mark the opening of Pandora's Cost-Cutting Box.
You responded:
No they don't.
Yes, they do.

In every instance where a guitar company sold out, they first started their agressive cost-cutting campaign by using CNC's. As I illustrated in my story, that's where it starts. As I have also illustrated in my other story, once they start using the CNC, the other cost-cutting opportunities are so tempting. Very.

Quote:
Just because a particular cost-cutting measure can potentially lead to more and more doesn't mean that it always will, yet your post is grounded on the 'fact' that any guitar maker who uses a CNC machine will always resort to cranking guitars out as fast and cheaply as they can.
Always? No. Most often? Unfortunately, yes. History bears that out. Iby, Fendy, Gibby, Prissy. They all did that.

Quote:
You also continually assert that a CNC machine is practically guaranteed to be used only by an unskilled operator, perhaps a forklift driver who's bored with the loading dock, which again probably happens some places but that doesn't mean it always must happen.
"Unskilled"? Define "skilled". In terms of skill in use of a CNC, I'm sure they would become quite proficient. That's not the point. Go back and reread my post.

With CNC, builders with Luthier experience becomes less and less necessary. Eventually, you can eliminate all of the people with Lutherie experience, and be left with CNC operators and programs.

Quote:
Your whole post seemed to be coming from the point of view of trying to make my statements fit with your perception of the current state guitar making in the world, but that isn't what I was talking about. I can't point to a particular guitar maker who uses a CNC technique in the careful, high-quality manner I described previously, but I really don't care because all I'm trying to say is that it could happen.
Well, as I've alluded to before, I agree that it could happen, and it, in fact, does happen in the cases that I've mentioned. There are outfits that actually use a limited amount of CNC just as you've decribed. But, that being said, that is a limited amount, and the lion's share is handmade, proprotionate to the handmade prices they charge. Alembic being one for example, along with Parker.

Quote:
I'm sorry, but I really can't accept an 'exception that proves the rule' defence. Logic says that if there can be one exception there can be more. (And if there are currently no other exceptions that in no way precludes there being more at some point in the future.)
Well, here's the deal. Life is complex and most case studies are simplistic. The "Exception to the Rule that Proves the Rule" principle refers to the fact that while on the surface it may seem like a certain case study is a clear exception to a rule, very often their are exceptions to that exception, or a whole other side to the story, and only when all sides are weighed do we get an accurate idea of how it plays.

As I've mentioned, he is the only Luthier I know uses one in his basement to small degrees, for only one line of guitars, that he is up front about using. But he does not use it on his high-end guitars. And, for what it's worth, his low-end guitar is where most high-ends leave off, such as Iby, Fendy, Gibby, Prissy.

Quote:
The fact that the person you mentioned built his own machine is pretty cool, but not automatically a factor in whether it actually produces better results. If that person retired and sold his workshop the new owner might be able to turn out even higher quality results, or they might start turning out beginner guitars as a sub-contractor for Squire.
Hmmmmmmm . . . not exactly, but anyway, moving on. More later.

Quote:
By manufacture I mean handmade vs. CNC. I don't pick out a guitar because of either of these characteristics, but by a great number of factors. Things like tone and feel, even looks, come way before it's manufacturing technique when I shop for a guitar. That is my point.
But so much of things like tone and feel, even looks, are sacrificed in an agressive cost-cutting campaign, wwhich usually starts with the acquisition of a CNC.

More later . . .

Chesh
__________________
Thought for the day . . . . Is the philosophical proof "pics or it didn't happen" a valid proof? Inquiring minds want to know.

If the doors of perception were cleansed, every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. --William Blake

Click here for the WORST advice you could ever get/give in the entire world of guitar buying

Last edited by CheshireCat; 12-18-2003 at 02:10 AM.
CheshireCat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-18-2003, 03:25 AM   #50
Banned
 

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
I take major umbrage over this. We are not talking about cranking out cost-effective guitars - machine-made guitars at machine-made prices. We are talking about largely machine made guitars at artificially high, hand-made prices, being sold to a largely uneducated buying public. I want to change that with these posts.

Now, the list is forthcoming, tho I have been mega-busy at work. I'm going to give about as thorough an answer as I can in this post.



Well, depends on all the options, like choice of topwood, pickups, and so on. But, that said, and as I mentioned before, if you had a PRS and a Luthiered, Handmade guitar with equivalent features, the fair-market value of the handmade guitar would be half the price of the PRS!!! No joke.

As a way of comparison, I can do no better than use Ed Roman's comparison of a PRS and Ed's Quicksilver, which he first made to replace the best PRS model they ever had, and invaribly discontinued. He wanted to fill the niche left by the old, handmade PRS. He ended up superceding it. BTW, this isn't a pitch or advert for Ed. Anything but! It just so happens that this is a perfect example of the dichotomy and disparity that we are talking about here. Anyway, go here for the comparison: http://www.edroman.com/tech/compare/qsg_prs.htm

I would love to reprint it here, but it's in a tabled format, and I can't recreate that here. Perhaps in the future I can do a more comprehensive, graphic comparison.

Also, I've included a link to a comprehensive price-list of the Quicksilvers, so you can see what a Luthier would charge. Now, the prices are a little padded, only because Ed has a store to run and employees to pay, but this still gives you a rough idea.

Quicksilvers are far superior guitars to PRS's. Several of the advantages include heeless bolt-in necks or set necks, vs. PRS's Heel from Hell. Second, a full, high quality Tone Pros Tune-o-Matic Bridge and Tailpiece set, vs. PRS's cheesy wraparound one-piece, which has absolutely no advantage over the TOM bridge except for cutting costs in increase PRS's bottom line. Third, they come with Duncan Blackbacks, which are far superior to anything that PRS makes. Duncan is the top passive pickup manufacturer in the world, rivaled by only EMG, tho EMG makes active the best. All this plus tons more standard features I don't have the space to list.

All that, here's a final price analysis of a Quicksilver with the basics that a PRS has. Out the door, the Quicksilver is $1495 compared to PRS's $2500 to $2700, and is twice the guitar. And the Quicksilver has tons of options, more than PRS would ever dream of offering. How many options? Go here and see it for yourself! http://www.edroman.com/guitar/quicksilver/price_qsg.htm

Now, like I said, this is not to advertise Ed, per se. This is just to illustrate a point, but understand, we could go on like this about tons of Luthiers and Boutique Guitar outfits.

Why not compare Heritage Guitars to Gibson, for instance? Heritage guitars are handmade guitars from the original luthiers who handmade the Gibsons in the original Kalamazoo factory decades ago. How's that for a price comparison. I'll see if I can post something to that effect.



* The Alembic sites I listed are excellent.
* Ed's site is excellent in terms of info. I listed some links. In fact, most all the guitars that Ed carries would qualify.
* Here's Heritage's site. http://www.heritageguitar.com/ Think of them as pre-corporate sell-out Gibson, because that's exactly what they are. You might even feel the ghost of Orville Gibson in there, like in that new car commercial.
* Ken Parker uses some CNC to do the really challenging and sophisticated work, but he still works very much like a handmade luthier. More on that later.
* JET Guitars are a totally perfect example of what we are talking about here. Jeffrey Earle Terwilliger is a single luthier who makes all his guitars himself. Here's his website: http://www.jetguitars.com/
* To the best of my knowledge, Warrior still makes their guitars and basses by hand. Also, they are only available in a guitar boutique here in Dallas, so that leads me to think that they are keeping it quality, not quantity. http://www.warriorinstruments.com

Those are some websites to give you some ideas of what a Handmade, "Luthiered" (to coin a term) guitar operation looks like.



Usually, just wherever you get them. Most often direct from the maker, often on a contract basis, or thru a guitar boutique. Any Luthier will take direct orders, and in fact that's how most of them get work.

The above websites will also yield more insight into this.



Well, as Gibson and PRS so eloquently demonstrate, a set-neck instrument with a mahogany body/neck and all the fru-fru aesthetics like binding, flamed maple top, and fancy inlays doesn't constitute a quality instrument. That's very easily done, and is done a lot. Also, there are no advantages in a set-neck over a bolt-on. A bolt-on is still an excellent way to join a neck to the body, and a heeless bolt-in is even better.

Either way, the PRS vs. QS comparison I gave above fit the bill.



That's fine. I just wanted to be sure.



Well, simply put, yes. But if a Luthier is paraplegic, he or she's still good to go. If he's quadrapelgic, then he may not even manage to hit the button on the CNC machine. Either way, it's a moot point.



Well, dead horse or not, it's a rather absurd conjecture. Being that he's quadraplegic, he's not controlling much of anything, unless he's telling someone else to run the CNC machine. But, to the best of my knowledge, GoodWill Industries hasn't branched out into Lutherie. They do incredible work, and if you want to make a difference in your community, contract your work out to them. You'd be utterly amazed by the results!! But, as it is, Lutherie isn't one of the industries they deal in. And if it was, I don't think they would have the quads doing that particular work. The paraplegics, OTOH? I could definitely see that, tho where it would go from there would be anyone's guess. But we digress . . .



Okay, first, how can I not relate this back to PRS or Gibby or Fendy and so on? It's their practices we are referring to, and others of their ilk. They are the ones, afterall, who are selling Machine-Made Guitars at Hand-Made Prices. [Well, sold thru GC at their established list-price range, yadda 3.]

Now, if you, for the sake of totally conjuctured, unrelated argument, want to talk about CNC's by themselves, then okay, let's look at your postulate.



First of all, a Luthier wouldn't. He couldn't afford a CNC at $200K a pop. He would have to crank out 100's of guitars to amortize the cost and still put bread on the table. Second, he wouldn't want to because he only has the quality card to play, and his customers would wonder why they were expected to pay his reasonable price of $7K for his reputedly hand-made guitars, having found out they were machine-made. Third, the body carving is very straightforward, and a CNC would not appreciably decrease his workload, but would cause him to lose some major rep.

Now, that said, let's say he somehow comes upon a CNC. Okay, fine. The minute that he loads the woodblank into the CNC, he loses all control over the process. If he makes a mistake, he can adjust. If something goes wrong with the CNC, like a blade or router bit toasts out, or travels on him, or whatever, then that expensive wood toasts out, the body is shot, and he has to literally start over from scratch.

Now, assuming all goes well, and all his measurements are exact, and the machine behaves, then the final result will be about the same, but, then again, all that can be accomplished on a Duplicarver. Here, he maintains total control, can stop the process at the first sign of trouble, and it is just as easy. Tho, granted, if you're lazy, it is easier just to load a woodblank, press a button, and just babysit the machine. Try saying that with pride! "Are you a Luthier?" "No! I'm a CNC babysitting! Cool, eh?"

Will wood get routed away, rendering the contour of a body in both scenarios? Yes. Is that the point? No. More later. . .



But that's the whole point. XYZ Guitars Inc. cranking out Machine-Made guitars, insinuating that they are Hand-Made, and then charging Luthier prices for them.



Well, like I said, that's the whole point.

Now, that said, there are companies who hand-make their guitars totally to custom spec who use CNC's for more intricate work where high tolerances are required, often in cases where their work is known for it's exquisite attention to detail. Like Alembic and Parker for example. They are known for their high tech approaches and radical innovation. They have tons of patents on said technology, and are entitled to use CNC technology to produced equally technologically advanced guitars. A CNC Machine rendering a Gibby or Prissy carved top does not fall into this category. Not even close. And not on the order of mass production they do. Even with the CNC, a custom Alembic, on a good day, will still take about 1.5 to 2 months to finish. Not a few days or a week.



Well, that's a lot like trying to present Hamlet without the Danish Prince anywhere to be seen.



Well, how am I supposed to know that? I learned long ago never to assume anything in this context. Also, while you may, indeed, know this, many don't and that was written in part for their benefit. It also illustrated my point, which was my goal. Also, you had some contradictions and inconsistancies in your statements which I felt were relevant, especially the vague, general, ambiguous implication that a CNC operator would select/prep the wood like a Luthier wood. As I illustrated, not true.



First, join and finish? Like "select/prep", please define your usage.

Second, "But to say which is the CNC one? I don't think you could." That remains to be seen. I probably could because I've been in this game a long time.

Ultimately, I don't get your point. Sure, a CNC machine can be used to carve a body. It could be used to make the entire guitar. Just readjust the list price range accordingly, just like every other industry known to man.



Yes, they do.

In every instance where a guitar company sold out, they first started their agressive cost-cutting campaign by using CNC's. As I illustrated in my story, that's where it starts. As I have also illustrated in my other story, once they start using the CNC, the other cost-cutting opportunities are so tempting. Very.



Always? No. Most often? Unfortunately, yes. History bears that out. Iby, Fendy, Gibby, Prissy. They all did that.



"Unskilled"? Define "skilled". In terms of skill in use of a CNC, I'm sure they would become quite proficient. That's not the point. Go back and reread my post.

With CNC, builders with Luthier experience becomes less and less necessary. Eventually, you can eliminate all of the people with Lutherie experience, and be left with CNC operators and programs.



Well, as I've alluded to before, I agree that it could happen, and it, in fact, does happen in the cases that I've mentioned. There are outfits that actually use a limited amount of CNC just as you've decribed. But, that being said, that is a limited amount, and the lion's share is handmade, proprotionate to the handmade prices they charge. Alembic being one for example, along with Parker.



Well, here's the deal. Life is complex and most case studies are simplistic. The "Exception to the Rule that Proves the Rule" principle refers to the fact that while on the surface it may seem like a certain case study is a clear exception to a rule, very often their are exceptions to that exception, or a whole other side to the story, and only when all sides are weighed do we get an accurate idea of how it plays.

As I've mentioned, he is the only Luthier I know uses one in his basement to small degrees, for only one line of guitars, that he is up front about using. But he does not use it on his high-end guitars. And, for what it's worth, his low-end guitar is where most high-ends leave off, such as Iby, Fendy, Gibby, Prissy.



Hmmmmmmm . . . not exactly, but anyway, moving on. More later.



But so much of things like tone and feel, even looks, are sacrificed in an agressive cost-cutting campaign, wwhich usually starts with the acquisition of a CNC.

More later . . .

Chesh


You know, if you were not so BIASED on HANDMADE GUITARS, I might just believe what you wrote....take away the fact that you only seem to believe they are the only guitars on the planet worth having because they are handmade! But a lot of your reasoning just does not add up! I have a PRS Mcarty and I have NO heel from hell as YOU want to put it! I play mine just fine and I have no trouble whatsoever going up on the high frets! It sounds to me like you are just against PRS and other guitar makers and have become a posterchild for handmade guitars. Just because YOU may have a problem with the heel on a PRS does not mean that everyone will! And just because you have a problem with CNC produced guitars, does not mean everyone will buy a quicksilver! WHY??? Because to me it is not only how a guitar is made and it's feel....but it's reputation! PRS, Fender, Gibson...all of these guitars who you so obviously hate, have built a very good reputation by producing some of the finest guitars available . But then again I forget I am talking to someone who belives they are just trash! Sorry, but that is your opinion not mine! And IT IS ONLY AN OPINION!
webe123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-18-2003, 04:26 AM   #51
Registered User
 
CheshireCat's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2001
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 6,317
Quote:
You know, if you were not so BIASED on HANDMADE GUITARS, I might just believe what you wrote....take away the fact that you only seem to believe they are the only guitars on the planet worth having because they are handmade! But a lot of your reasoning just does not add up! I have a PRS Mcarty and I have NO heel from hell as YOU want to put it! I play mine just fine and I have no trouble whatsoever going up on the high frets! It sounds to me like you are just against PRS and other guitar makers and have become a posterchild for handmade guitars. Just because YOU may have a problem with the heel on a PRS does not mean that everyone will! And just because you have a problem with CNC produced guitars, does not mean everyone will buy a quicksilver! WHY??? Because to me it is not only how a guitar is made and it's feel....but it's reputation! PRS, Fender, Gibson...all of these guitars who you so obviously hate, have built a very good reputation by producing some of the finest guitars available . But then again I forget I am talking to someone who belives they are just trash! Sorry, but that is your opinion not mine! And IT IS ONLY AN OPINION!
Am I taking crazy pills or something!?! What are people not getting around here!!?!!??!!

Okay, new poll. "How many people here just fell off the turnip truck!?"

Okay, here goes.

Quote:
You know, if you were not so BIASED on HANDMADE GUITARS, I might just believe what you wrote
Biased!?! BIASED!?! This whole freaking thread is about, as I have said already countless times!!!!!, that we are talking about . . . . ready? read my lips . . . . Machine-Made Guitars at Hand-Made Prices!! - Said Guitars Insinuated to be Hand-Made thru the Ambiguous Ad Campaign and Marketing Efforts of the Mass-Producing Manufacturer!!!

How hard is that to grasp!?! Why are people not getting that? Why is it soooooo freaking hard to wrap your brain around that concept!?! Are you so freaking brainwashed that you just don't get it?

Quote:
...take away the fact that you only seem to believe they are the only guitars on the planet worth having because they are handmade!
Dude, what is the color of the sky in your world? Magenta? Fuschia? Plaid?

How many times have I said both of these statements!?!: "If we were just talking about CNC made guitars at cheap prices for beginners, then I would be fine with it. That would actually be a good thing" AND "Here, best bet. Go out and get a Mexi-Strat [Editorial note: I just recommended a CNC'd guitar] and hot-rod it! Best bang for your buck!"

The first one I've said about 5 times in this thread alone, not to mention in several other places. The second in just about every single thread where someone asked about what kind of guitar to get.

In case you just had a mental lapse and missed something, I will say it again: I am perfectly fine with CNC made guitars at economical prices to make it easier for newbies to get started playing guitar. The only standard is that it is a decent guitar, and not wantonly lacking. A Fender MIM Strat and/or an Iby RG would be excellent choices, and they are CNC'd.

Dude, did you even bother reading my posts? Don't skim them and then take me on. If you want to take me on, fine. Just know what the heck you are talking about!!

Quote:
But a lot of your reasoning just does not add up!
You're kidding, right? It all adds up. In Spades. If you actually read them in an unBIASED (there's that word again) way and without an ego invested agenda, you would have gotten what I was talking about. You say I'm Biased!?! You're the one with the PRS. How do I know this just isn't your ego getting honery?

Quote:
I have a PRS Mcarty and I have NO heel from hell as YOU want to put it!
Post a pic of your heel, then we'll talk. Til then, every single freaking post-April'95 PRS I've seen has the HFH. I just checked the PRS website, and it looks like the Mcarty is no different. Like I said, I'm open to debate on this, but post a pic of your specific guitar first, so we can see.

Quote:
I play mine just fine and I have no trouble whatsoever going up on the high frets!
Well, great, I'm happy for you. If you are content playing with that heel, good for you. I know I'm not, and most everyone else I know hates it. And, the Quicksilver has no heel! Not like I'm all gaga over QS, but that is a powerful distinction between the two.

Quote:
Just because YOU may have a problem with the heel on a PRS does not mean that everyone will!
Fine. To each his own.

Quote:
And just because you have a problem with CNC produced guitars, does not mean everyone will buy a quicksilver!
Fine. I don't expect them to. As I said before, which you clearly did not read, was that I was simply drawing a comparison between those two simply because it was the most relevant of comparisons given the thrust of the thread. Apparantly, like much of what I wrote, you didn't get that.

Quote:
It sounds to me like you are just against PRS and other guitar makers and have become a posterchild for handmade guitars.
I'm the poster child for handmade? Well, first off, I would wear that distinction as an honor and a privilege, however, in the World of Guitars, someone else holds that crown! Maybe you've heard of him. His name is Paul Reed Smith. Hey, what a minute! His initials are PRS, aren't they? Yeah, they are. Don't you play a guitar that has the initials PRS on the headstock? Hmmmmmmmmm . . . . Think there might be a connection?

Dude, Paul was the poster child for Handmade for about a decade and a half, going on about 2 decades. Now, you mention something else interesting further down . . .

Quote:
WHY??? Because to me it is not only how a guitar is made and it's feel....but it's reputation!
Boy, I'm soooooooo glad you said that . . . you are making this sooooo easy for me . . . we continue . . .

Quote:
PRS, Fender, Gibson...all of these guitars who you so obviously hate, have built a very good reputation by producing some of the finest guitars available.
This is soooooooooo freaking funny it is unreal!!! You just eloquently made my argument! Thank you! I appreciate that.

First, all these companies did exactly what you said they did. They . . .

Quote:
have built a very good reputation by producing some of the finest guitars available
. . . just as you've said, by PRODUCING HANDMADE GUITARS!!! Paul, Leo, and Orville all started that way. That's where their reputation came from, not from what the corporate a-holes who bought them out did with them.

Second, I don't hate the guitars themselves. I still think they are perfectly fine guitars, the ravages of cost-cutting not withstanding. What I do hate, and what I have been ranting about, is what the corporate a-holes have done to dramatically compromise quality while keeping the prices artificially inflated.

Paul Reed Smith built his rep on HANDMADE GUITARS. In fact, HE PIONEERED THEM IN THE EARLY 70'S. He was the trendsetter. PAUL REED SMITH WAS A THE POSTER CHILD FOR HANDMADE FOR 2 DECADES!!! Man, don't you even know your history? That all changed in April of '95. Have you even ever seen a pre April '95 PRS? Probably not.

Also, you obviously haven't read all the posts where I clearly say how much I want to get a PRS!!!! A pre April '95 PRS! Of course, I'll hot-rod it (and no I don't give a freak about resale value - I'm never going to sell it). And speaking of feel and manufacture, that's exactly what Paul was known for. Beautiful, exquisitely built handmade guitars that looked and felt awesome, and played incredibly well. That's what his reputation was built on. Why is that so hard to get?

Also, how many times have I recommended Strats? How about countless times? Or P-Basses? Try countless times. In fact, I have often said that Strats are one of my favorite guitars, that I love 'em. Correct me if I am wrong, but arent' they Fender instruments? Now, I'm not too big on Gibby, but then I have a had a custom LP in mind for some time, so stay tuned.

Quote:
But then again I forget I am talking to someone who belives they are just trash!
Once again, that's all unfounded BS. I've said countless times that they are perfectly fine production guitars. Overpriced as hell, but perfectly fine production guitars nonetheless.

Quote:
Sorry, but that is your opinion not mine! And IT IS ONLY AN OPINION!
Well, no, none of what you've tried to throw in my face was actually my opinion, but whatever your opinion is, you are more than welcome to it.

However, what I don't care for is how you are taking me on and you don't know what you are freaking talking about, and you didn't really read anything that I wrote.

My guess would be that I inadvertantly ruffled your feathers and you flew off the handle without actually reading what I wrote. Well, sorry if I ruffled your feathers, but, dude, if you're going to throw down, at least be able to back up what you say.

Chesh

PS - Also, another thing. You came out attacking me, both guns blazing. If you attack me, you'll get it back ten fold. If you just express disagreement in a friendly tone, and ask rather than accuse, then I am really mellow and more than happy to discuss something and clarify anything that was maybe confusing and not clear.
__________________
Thought for the day . . . . Is the philosophical proof "pics or it didn't happen" a valid proof? Inquiring minds want to know.

If the doors of perception were cleansed, every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. --William Blake

Click here for the WORST advice you could ever get/give in the entire world of guitar buying

Last edited by CheshireCat; 12-18-2003 at 10:31 PM.
CheshireCat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-18-2003, 06:14 AM   #52
Registered User
 
boogeray's Avatar
 

Joined: Feb 2002
Location: Post, TX
Posts: 1,161
what if i bought a totally hand made guitar & then i wanted another one just like it?? ... fat chance
__________________
regards boogeray

is liberalism really a mental disorder?
boogeray is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-18-2003, 06:22 AM   #53
Banned
 

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
FRICKIN' A!?!

"Am I taking crazy pills or something!?! What are people not getting around here!!?!!??!!

Okay, new poll. "How many people here just fell off the turnip truck!?"

Okay, here goes."



"Biased!?! BIASED!?! This whole freaking thread is about, as I have said already countless times!!!!!, that we are talking about . . . . ready? read my lips . . . . Machine-Made Guitars at Hand-Made Prices!! - Said Guitars Insinuated to be Hand-Made thru the Ambiguous Ad Campaign and Marketing Efforts of the Mass-Producing Manufacturer!!!

How hard is that to grasp!?! Why are people not getting that? Why is it soooooo freaking hard to wrap your brain around that concept!?! Are you so freaking brainwashed that you just don't get it?"



WEBE123: Are YOU so freakin IGNORANT that you have to believe that YOUR CONCEPT IS THE ONLY ONE?? Where do you get off telling me or others what we should think? And WHY is your opinion SO IMPORTANT? To me, you are nothing but a guitar snob that likes to put down other peoples INSTRUIMENTS!



"Okay, two questions. What are you smoking and where can I get some? Also, what is the color of the sky in your world? Magenta? Fuschia? Plaid?"


Webe123: OKAY I will answer that if you answer THIS, who do you think you are? and why should I bow down before YOUR great knowledge? Do you think you are some kind of KNOWLEDE GOD?? I only know ONE and it AIN'T YOU!! Get that through your head!

"How many times have I said both of these statements!?!: "If we were just talking about CNC made guitars at cheap prices for beginners, then I would be fine with it. That would actually be a good thing" AND "Here, best bet. Go out and get a Mexi-Strat [Editorial note: I just recommended a CNC'd guitar] and hot-rod it! Best bang for your buck!"



webe123: YES you said that.... and then downed fender and other manufacturers (PRS heel from hell ....remember??) because they were not hand made!

"The first one I've said about 5 times in this thread alone, not to mention in several other places. The second in just about every single frickin thread where someone asked about what kind of guitar to get."



webe123: AND STILL you bashed other guitar manufacturers because you felt they didn't live up to your standards ...GET A LIFE! Face it...there are some things you may like in a guitar and others will not, just like I may have my opinions and you have yours about what makes a good guitar! Either way, that does NOT make a guitar good or bad! just different!! But don't think FOR A SECOND that you are gonna change my opinion about what I( want or need to buy, espically with this "Holier than thou" attitude!

"In case you just had a mental lapse and missed something, I will say it again: I am perfectly fine with CNC made guitars at economical prices to make it easier for newbies to get started playing guitar. The only standard is that it is a decent guitar, and not wantonly lacking. A Fender MIM Strat and/or an Iby RG would be excellent choices, and they are CNC'd."


Webe123: Listen my mind is just fine! But I think YOU have a SCREW LOOSE! I read all of your statements and even though you came off as trying to project that you are just fine with those guitars.....the last few paragraphs sounded like a posterchild for handmade guitars! If you can't handle that then tough! And why are we talking newbies?? This was about handmade vs. cnc production....do you really think that a newbie (unless Bill Gates starts playing guitar) is able to AFFORD a HANDMADE instrument?? For most the answer would be NO! And even if they could, most would advise against it, because they don't really know if they will stick with guitar or not!!




"Dude, did you even bother reading my posts? Don't skim them and then take me on. If you want to take me on, fine. Just know what the heck you are talking about!!"

webe123: YES I READ YOUR POSTS! If you want to take ME on do then, but you have one fight comming! I can promise you that!



"You're kidding, right? It all adds up. In Spades. If you actually read them in an unBIASED (there's that word again) way and without an ego invested agenda, you would have gotten what I was talking about. You say I'm Biased!?! You're the one with the PRS. How do I know this just isn't your ego getting honery?"



webe123: Because not ONE TIME in my posts did I ever suggest that PRS was the one to have! But in most of YOUR posts not ONLY PRS...but Fender and Gibson got it too! It is true of ANY (including the one you mentioned) guitar that they have faults and flaws, but when you act like it is so bad to own a fender, gibson or PRS then I will take3 that up with you in SPADES!



"Post a pic of your heel, then we'll talk. Til then, every single freaking post-April'95 PRS I've seen has the HFH. I just checked the PRS website, and it looks like the Mcarty is no different. Like I said, I'm open to debate on this, but post a pic of your specific guitar first, so we can see."



here it is...and I have NO trouble with it at all!! This is it on the auction I won at ebay! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=33045




"Well, great, I'm happy for you. If you are content playing with that heel, good for you. I know I'm not, and most everyone else I know hates it. And, the Quicksilver has no heel! Not like I'm all gaga over QS, but that is a powerful distinction between the two."



webe123: Yeah your "ga ga" all right, just somebody who wants attention! If it is so bad, then why doesn't PRS shut down and make heels to please YOU?? Gee....I guess that is beacuse they are doing fine WITHOUT YOU!



Fine. To each his own.



webe123: my words EXACTLY!!



Fine. I don't expect them to. As I said before, which you clearly did not read, was that I was simply drawing a comparison between those two simply because it was the most relevant of comparisons given the thrust of the thread. Apparantly, like much of what I wrote, you didn't get that.




webe123: Apparently I have a difference of opinion with you and youy can't STAND THAT!



"Okay, are you smoking crack? I'm the poster child for handmade? Well, first off, I would wear that distinction as an honor and a privilege, however, in the World of Guitars, someone else holds that crown! Maybe you've heard of him. His name is Paul Reed Smith. Hey, what a minute! His initials are PRS, aren't they? Yeah, they are. Don't you play a guitar that has the initials PRS on the headstock? Hmmmmmmmmm . . . . Think there might be a connection?

Dude, Paul was the poster child for Handmade for about a decade and a half, going on about 2 decades. Now, you mention something else interesting further down . . ."


webe123: Well I am GLAD you FINALLY realized that HE was the one who started all of this! At least you are not that stupid!



"Boy, I'm soooooooo glad you said that . . . you are making this sooooo easy for me . . . we continue . . ."

webe123: Great glad I can help



"This is soooooooooo freaking funny it is unreal!!! You just eloquently made my argument! Thank you! I appreciate that.

First, all these companies did exactly what you said they did. They . . .



. . . just as you've said, by PRODUCING HANDMADE GUITARS!!! Paul, Leo, and Orville all started that way. That's where their reputation came from, not from what the corporate a-holes who bought them out did with them.

Second, I don't hate the guitars themselves. I still think they are perfectly fine guitars, the ravages of cost-cutting not withstanding. What I do hate, and what I have been ranting about, is what the corporate a-holes have done to dramatically compromise quality while keeping the prices artificially inflated.

Paul Reed Smith built his rep on HANDMADE GUITARS. In fact, HE PIONEERED THEM IN THE EARLY 70'S. He was the trendsetter. PAUL REED SMITH WAS A THE POSTER CHILD FOR HANDMADE FOR 2 DECADES!!! Man, don't you even know your history? That all changed in April of '95. Have you even ever seen a pre April '95 PRS? Probably not."


webe123: mYeah and I guess YOU the KNOWLEDGE GOD of all guitars are the one I should bow to?? THINK AGAIN!!

"Also, you obviously haven't read all the posts where I clearly say how much I want to get a PRS!!!! A pre April '95 PRS! Of course, I'll hot-rod it (and no I don't give a freak about resale value - I'm never going to sell it). And speaking of feel and manufacture, that's exactly what Paul was known for. Beautiful, exquisitely built handmade guitars that looked and felt awesome, and played incredibly well. That's what his reputation was built on. Why is that so hard to get?"



webe123: What is so "hard to get" is your Flip flop in this area! NOW you are are saying you would want to own one?? WHY?? I mean if I felt a company "sold out" why would I want one of their guitars?? Same goes for gibson and fender you mentioned!



"Also, how many times have I recommended Strats? How about countless times? Or P-Basses? Try countless times. In fact, I have often said that Strats are one of my favorite guitars, that I love 'em. Correct me if I am wrong, but arent' they Fender instruments? Now, I'm not too big on Gibby, but then I have a had a custom LP in mind for some time, so stay tuned."


webe123: Again if I were you, I wouldn't dirty myself with the likes of these guitars! Why..... THEY SOLD OUT!! Wouldn't you be lowering your standards just a little?? I would HATE to see that! I mean...buy a guitar from a company that you think sold out?? (sarcasim intended!)



"Once again, that's all unfounded BS. I've said countless times that they are perfectly fine production guitars. Overpriced as hell, but perfectly fine production guitars nonetheless."



webe123: Really, I don't see what we are arguing about! You have your points and I can come right back with mine! But if I were you and I really felt that PRS, Gibson or Fender for that matter was a terrible company that sold out because they USED TO handmake thier instruments.... I would NEVER and I mean NEVER buy their guitars PERIOD!



"Well, no, none of what you've tried to throw in my face was actually my opinion, but whatever your opinion is, you are more than welcome to it.

However, what I don't care for is how you are taking me on and you don't know what you are freaking talking about, and you didn't really read anything that I wrote.

My guess would be that I inadvertantly ruffled your feathers and you flew off the handle without actually reading what I wrote. Well, sorry if I ruffled your feathers, but, dude, if you're going to throw down, at least be able to back up what you say."


webe123: Dude I CAN back up what I say!

Chesh

PS - Also, another thing. You came out attacking me, both guns blazing. If you attack me, you'll get it back ten fold. If you just express disagreement in a friendly tone, and ask rather than accuse, then I am really mellow and more than happy to discuss something and clarify anything that was maybe confusing and not clear.


webe123: OK, but that GOES TWO WAYS MISTER! If I see you asking me what I am smoking then yes, YOU are going to get it!
webe123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-18-2003, 06:32 AM   #54
The Chameleon
 
Shredcheddar's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2002
Location: College Station, Texas
Posts: 5,091
Send a message via AIM to Shredcheddar
Uhh.. are you threatening to give him what you're smoking?



Stopit stopit stopit. Even though it's entertaining to see drama, I really think you guys should handle this via PM, or just drop it if it's gonna get this heated .
__________________
<center>Polar bears use camoflauge to catch their daily meal.
Shredcheddar is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-18-2003, 09:44 AM   #55
I play Guitar...
 
PianoMan's Avatar
 

Joined: Jun 2002
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,864
Seriously guys, if you keep on going with the flaming, then i'm gonna shut the thread down. And please quit the drug stuff, you should have read Luke's crude humor announcement by now.
__________________
Guitars: Burtone Telecaster, Duesenberg Starplayer DTV, Carvin Contour 66, Rettler OM Acoustic
Amp/Effects: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx II, QSC K10 Amp

Last edited by PianoMan; 12-18-2003 at 09:51 AM.
PianoMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-18-2003, 10:17 AM   #56
Registered User
 
ryanspeer's Avatar
 

Joined: May 2003
Location: Seattle
Posts: 780
Can't agree more pianoman. I've tried to stay out of this one for as long as possible.

...So, kids, put down your sticks and stones, stop calling each other names, and let's remember the name of the website we're on, eh? I'd be pretty turned off if I were a non-Christian just browsing around and dying for a reason to hate Christians more...

Seriously, if a guitar is hand-made from start to finish, or if the wood is CNC cut, big deal! The world will still keep spinning, the sun will still rise tomorrow, you'll still have to pay taxes this April and one day you'll still die. Is "whether a wood blank is cut by a computer-guided machine vs. a handsaw" really worth it?

__________________
Guitar effect routing solutions!

PacifiCustom Pedals
ryanspeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-18-2003, 11:06 AM   #57
Registered User
 
CheshireCat's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2001
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 6,317
Quote:
boogeray said:
what if i bought a totally hand made guitar & then i wanted another one just like it?? ... fat chance
You don't really know much about Lutherie and Carpentry, do you? These aren't some yahoos who throw together some project guitar over the weekend. These are professionals who do nothing but make high quality guitars all day long. That's what they do. That's what Orville Gibson did, Leo Fender did, and Paul Reed Smith did for decades before the first CNC ever enters the picture.

No offense, but that's the reality of it. And, that's what a lot of these companies are selling - the concept or illusion of that.

More coming . . . longer post than I first noticed, and I get to go to work . . .

PianoMan - I'm all about love here and insightful discussion. I don't care for being attacked. You know me. If I'm attacked, I don't particularly care for it, and I will let the attacker know.

Also, I am really getting annoyed over the fact that I have repeated the same thing now for about 5 times and people are still not getting it, like I keep emphasizing the point, and people post stuff that tells me, based on results, that they never read what I wrote, or they skimmed it with an ego-invested agenda, and then jumped in and started slighting my mental faculties and basically sounding off their ego.

I don't dig on that.

For instance, Major Tom has been very sharp and insightful. While I strongly challenged many of his opinions in many instances, I have always had a respect for him, and I respect his opinion, even when I don't agree.

What I don't take kindly to are unmitigated attacks. If I said something which rubbed anyone the wrong way, fine, tell me!!!!! Just say, "Chesh, with all due respect, I disagree with you" and then explain why. That's perfectly fine. And usually we figure out where we are, and we're cool. Like me and R2D2. We've debated several topics, but then came out to find that we pretty much get the same idea, but at different areas.

I'm totally cool with that.

I like brisk debate and insightful discussion. I don't dig on attacks. I and really don't dig on oven door blasts of ego. That, I do not respond favorably to.

I'm not looking to flame anyone. I'm just looking to discuss this stuff. But I don't like being attacked, and sleighted, especially from someone out of the blue who hadn't really rang in before and isn't actively involved in the discussion at that point.

Get in the discussion, establish yourself, and then say your piece. That's all I ask. Don't hide out, and then jump in with some sanctimonious piledriver or egotistical sledgehammer.

That's one of the reasons why I like you, Pianoman. Besides digging on Parkers (sweet! ), you are really cool to discuss things with. That's why I have a lot of respect for you.

Anyway, I'm not looking to flame anyone and I am more than willing to discuss this in moderated tones.

If WEBE123 goes back and edits his post so that I can actually read it (he somehow quoted his entire post and I can't read half of it) then I will happily respond in dulcit tones.

Chesh
__________________
Thought for the day . . . . Is the philosophical proof "pics or it didn't happen" a valid proof? Inquiring minds want to know.

If the doors of perception were cleansed, every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite. --William Blake

Click here for the WORST advice you could ever get/give in the entire world of guitar buying
CheshireCat is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-18-2003, 11:33 AM   #58
I play Guitar...
 
PianoMan's Avatar
 

Joined: Jun 2002
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,864
I realilze its irritating, but the fact that someone has insulted you is no reason to insult them. Did Jesus not say that if someone slaps you on one cheek, turn and let them slap the other? An always remember that this is a Christian board, and there are non-believers that participate on here and we want to be an example of Christ to them.

Now back on topic...

I really don't think many people will go with all the stuff on Ed Roman. While he does make some good deals, he has the reptation of being a con-artist of sorts, especally since one of our members had a very bad experience with him and let everyone know it.

Aside that, I do agree that the main brands are overpriced. The fact is, their guitars are in high demand, and when people want something, they are willing to pay more for it. The big companies take advantage of this. Really the only way for this to change is for a handmade guitar maker to get a lot of attention through ads and by getting their products into stores. As luthiers generally don't have a lot of money, this is extremely hard to do. All we can do is let them know.

And I do think that the major brand guitars are good guitars - they wouldn't have gotten as big as they are if they weren't. I just think that they aren't as good as some of the handmade guitars out there.

And Boogeray, the whole point of being a luthier is to make the guitar that the customer wants to their exact specifications. Therefore, if someone wants one the exact same as one previously made, then it shouldn't be a problem.
__________________
Guitars: Burtone Telecaster, Duesenberg Starplayer DTV, Carvin Contour 66, Rettler OM Acoustic
Amp/Effects: Fractal Audio Axe-Fx II, QSC K10 Amp
PianoMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-18-2003, 01:44 PM   #59
Registered User
 
boogeray's Avatar
 

Joined: Feb 2002
Location: Post, TX
Posts: 1,161
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
You don't really know much about Lutherie and Carpentry, do you? These aren't some yahoos who throw together some project guitar over the weekend. These are professionals who do nothing but make high quality guitars all day long. That's what they do. That's what Orville Gibson did, Leo Fender did, and Paul Reed Smith did for decades before the first CNC ever enters the picture.

No offense, but that's the reality of it. And, that's what a lot of these companies are selling - the concept or illusion of that.
none taken ... never did any lutherie but i have done lotsa carpentry ... i understand a lot more than you think ... i just know that "all handmade" is some what over rated & surely over priced

if you try to tell me that a fella making totally handmade, can turn out each guitar exactly like the last one ... then discussing this with you is useless & i would say you have a very distorted veiw of lutherie

a cnc mill or lathe can turn out parts with a tolerence of plus or minus .005 (that's one half thousandth) if need be ... ya can't do that by hand
__________________
regards boogeray

is liberalism really a mental disorder?

Last edited by boogeray; 12-18-2003 at 01:50 PM.
boogeray is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 12-18-2003, 01:47 PM   #60
Registered User
 
Major Tom's Avatar
 

Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 3,843
CC -
As far as the Quicksilver guitars, they look beautiful, and I'm sure are great guitars, but alas, I can't try one out locally. Unless I am missing something, after having scanned the pricing/options, the $1495 is for a very base model - solid mahagany body and a maple neck with a tung oil finish. To bring it up to where it is aesthetically comparable to the PRS guits I see on the wall at GC with the binding, flame maple top, and bird inlays, which as I remember are around $2500 to $2700 (I don't look too hard, since I don't have that kind of scratch for a guit ). I won't debate on the various merits of one pickup, tuner brand, or bridge system vs. another, as that is a matter of taste, and the actual cost difference from one to another would not be that big of a deal on guitars in this price range. Here is what I come up with for a Quicksilver + options that I believe put it in the same ballpark as a PRS.

1495 base price - solid mahogany body/maple neck with tung oil finish
75 for mahogany neck
200 laminate charge ( I am assuming that is to laminate a bookmatched maple cap onto the body)
400 for a bookmatched flame maple top
450 for a stained / glossy finish
250 body binding
150 neck binding (I can't remember do the PRS have this?)
45 locking tuners
300 for neck inlays (lighning bolts)

Total for Quicksilver with "PRS" style aesthetic options = $3365.00
That is less than I would have expected for a Luthier-shop made guitar, but still more than a comparable PRS. I am sure they are wonderful guitars - they certainly look great in the pictures, but the bottom line to me is that both being made of the same type of wood, and comparable in design, etc., the end products would be very similar. If I had the dough and the desire to buy one or the other, unless one really knocked me over in a certain way, resale value notwithstanding, I would go with the lower priced one. I do, however, like the idea of getting what I want on there - if I had specific pickups I wanted, neck width/profile and other options that I was set on, it might be better to go with the QS than the PRS and sink extra $$ into it, but then, if I order a guitar, and receive it after a month or two, it might not have the "magic" of the one I tried and liked. So maybe being in stock locally so I can pick one out that "does it" for me might be worth a certain $$ amount too...

Products and services in our world aren't sold for their intrinsic worth, but what the market will bear. PRS and Gibson guitars sell for what they do because people buy 'em. I can't fault them for that, nor do I know what their real costs are - the bigger the company and more employees, etc, means bigger office payroll - accounting dept, managers, supervisors, etc. A lot of overhead costs that a small shop does not have, costs that don't add value to the product per se, but are real nonetheless, and do keep people employed and the economy moving.
Major Tom is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:36 AM.


Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2