[psalm63adam]

Originally Posted by Mr McB

No, God made man, man made himself deserving of hell, God chose to save some. What you are talking about is supralapsarianism.

Well, it seems like a lot of Calvinists on this board are supralapsarians. You must not be.

Is there a problem with this? Do you wish to be saved because of some merit in yourself?

I am not saying I saved myself. I am saying that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation and has the ability to enlighten me to my need for a Savior. Then I must either accept or reject this good news. All who hear the gospel have the same opportunity.

Why don't you believe in total depravity? The descriptions I've seen on this board have been straight scripture.

Because most on this board believe in total inability, not total depravity.

1) What makes a man choose one way or the other?

2) Where does scripture give an example of such an opportunity?

1) either one is awestruck and grateful to God for providing a way to a relationship with Him, or one couldn't care less and rejects the message, due to not wanting to change his/her lifestyle, etc.

2) Acts 8 - the Ethiopian eunuch.

26Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Go south to the road--the desert road--that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian[4] eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet. 29The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.
31"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:
"He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth."[5]
34The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?" 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[6] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

The Ethiopian eunuch heard the good news, it opened his heart to salvation, and he was baptized.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Mr McB

1) What makes a man choose one way or the other?

I guess the same thing that makes a person decide to murder or not.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Scum.™

Well, it seems like a lot of Calvinists on this board are supralapsarians. You must not be.

I'm not either.

I am not saying I saved myself. I am saying that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation and has the ability to enlighten me to my need for a Savior. Then I must either accept or reject this good news. All who hear the gospel have the same opportunity.

But the reason some are saved and others are not rests on the individuals.

The Ethiopian eunuch heard the good news, it opened his heart to salvation, and he was baptized.

What point are you trying to make from this passage?

Grace & Peace
Luke

[psalm63adam]

MrMcB was asking me where in Scripture I saw someone hearing the gospel and responding to it in faith.

[Wally]

i don't believe a calvinist would ever deny that there is an outside, visible choice made by the person. the part that we don't see (and therefore wouldn't see it in this passage either) is the fact that God does the work in leading the person to Himself.

other stuff though...

Originally Posted by scum

All who hear the gospel have the same opportunity.

what about those who don't hear the gospel?

[dungscooperdave]

Originally Posted by chico

i am somewhat confused who you are debating with dungscooperdave. earlier on this page, you seemed to be making a point against Calvanism, countering Wally's post. then the last post on this page seems to be supporting Calvanism. not that it really matters, but i was just wondering where you stood on this? C? A? on the fence?

chris

I'm a Calvinist whenever I'm posting from a Christian viewpoint. Other than that I'm usually either atheistic or deistic. The fact that I'm on the fence about Christianity at the present time is what is confusing you.


Can we have a definition and/or explanation of
"supralapsarian"?

If my dictionary's definition:
any of a group of Calvinists who held that God's plan of salvation for some people preceded the fall of humanity from grace, which had been predestined: opposed to INFRALAPSARIAN
is correct, then I'm quite surprised to discover that some of the Calvinists here aren't in fact supralapsarians.

[Dice]

I am not saying I saved myself. I am saying that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation and has the ability to enlighten me to my need for a Savior. Then I must either accept or reject this good news. All who hear the gospel have the same opportunity.

1) either one is awestruck and grateful to God for providing a way to a relationship with Him, or one couldn't care less and rejects the message, due to not wanting to change his/her lifestyle, etc.

The latter explains the state of the person when they choose one way or the other, but you did not explain why a person is in one state or the other so that they would respond in one way or the other. So again, what makes a person accept or reject?

Because most on this board believe in total inability, not total depravity.

Please define.

The Ethiopian eunuch heard the good news, it opened his heart to salvation, and he was baptized.

To clarify what we are trying to accomplish here, I already perfectly understand what you believe, but what I want to know is why. In other words, we are not looking for the difference, but we are looking for the distinction. Any calvinist on this board will offer many passages to explain why they believe things follow calvinism, passages that are very up front and descriptive of God's unearned direct regeneration in a persons heart. However I haven't seen any scripture that defines the process of salvation under arminian terms, where a person enlightened to the gospel rejects it.

No arminian I have seen has offered an appropriate description of any such thing, they have only applied their views to vague passages such as that one from acts. As I have said before on these baords it's not a matter of whether your ideas work with scripture or not (though I'd argue not) but whether you are getting your ideas from scripture alone or not. It's a simple enough question, where do you believe scripture makes the distinction for arminianism over calvinism?

Can we have a definition and/or explanation of
"supralapsarian"?

If my dictionary's definition:
any of a group of Calvinists who held that God's plan of salvation for some people preceded the fall of humanity from grace, which had been predestined: opposed to INFRALAPSARIAN
is correct, then I'm quite surprised to discover that some of the Calvinists here aren't in fact supralapsarians.

That is a bad definition. In either view God's plan of salvation is before the foundations of the earth, but supralapsarianism means that God's initial plan was for the fall to happen so as to necessitate salvation. Which is inheritly flawed because that would be condemning man for something he did not yet do (as well as a number of other problems, which I think arminius cleaned up on in his day), as where there is no transgression there is no wrath. Under infralapsarianism God's plan of salvation is a preemptive response to the fall, but the fall itself was not purposed by God.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Scum.?

The Ethiopian eunuch heard the good news, it opened his heart to salvation, and he was baptized.

The Gospel itself does not open hearts. God opens hearts. And only God opens hearts.

Acts 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.

Psalm 119:36 Incline my heart to your testimonies

Psalm 119:18 Open my eyes, that I may behold wonderful things from your law.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Scum.?

I am not saying I saved myself. I am saying that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation and has the ability to enlighten me to my need for a Savior. Then I must either accept or reject this good news. All who hear the gospel have the same opportunity.

No calvinist will deny that every person who hears the gospel has the same opportunity to accept it or reject. Calvinism attempts to answer why some accept it and some reject it.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by Wally

what about those who don't hear the gospel?

I think this is best left for another thread

[Dice]

Oh yeah, there is also that (I didnt know that acts 16 verse), it is where I'd argue against his idea.

2 Corinthians 4
1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart,
2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

The gospel being preached, but not received by all, to those who did recieve it was by God Himself (ala John 6, 1 Cor 2)

But nevertheless I would like to know where he is getting his idea from.

[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by Mr McB

In either view God's plan of salvation is before the foundations of the earth

Just because infralapsarians do not admit it, that does not mean that is not what their view means.

[Dice]

Huh?

[Mike Graham]

The infralapsarians teach it no more than do the Arminians. It makes it only temprally before the foundations of the Earth, not logically.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by dungscooperdave

I'm a Calvinist whenever I'm posting from a Christian viewpoint. Other than that I'm usually either atheistic or deistic. The fact that I'm on the fence about Christianity at the present time is what is confusing you.

.

Uh oh....does Calvinism lead towards atheisim or deism?