[Karen M]

Good Afternoon Everyone

I had a discussion the other day with some individuals about what exactly consititutes suicide and it seemed like a good discussion for a message board topic.

These are the two senarios:

1. A convict who hates cops attempts to escape prison. He aquires a gun somewhere during his attempted escape, and he eventually comes to a dead end with about 25 cops all armed in his way. He knows if he draws his gun they will shoot him, but he figures that life in prison is not worth living and he wants to kill a cop. He therefore draws his gun and of course, the 25 armed cops shoot him down. Does this count as suicide? He didn't actually kill shoot or stab himself; it was the cops who shot him.

2. An Islamic extremist straps a bomb to his chest and walks into a store to commit a "suicide bombing." He blows himself and others around him up. Though his actions did happen to result in his own death, his main goal was the hurt or kill the others around him. Does this count as suicide?

Also, I would like in your responses to say what your general belief is (Roman Catholic, Baptist, etc.) and your opinions on suicide (is it a sin?) to see if that has on effect on whether you consider these to be suicide or not (apparently it did in the other conversation).

My personal opinions are:

1. The first one is not suicide because, thought he put himself in a situation that he was sure to die in, he did not actually pull the trigger himself.

2. The second one is suicide because he actually set the bomb off himself.

I am agnostic, and I believe suicide is not immoral so long as the individual suiciding is sane and it harms no one else.


Thanks for any responses.

[pixnaps]

My personal opinions are:

1. The first one is not suicide because, thought he put himself in a situation that he was sure to die in, he did not actually pull the trigger himself.

2. The second one is suicide because he actually set the bomb off himself.

I am agnostic, and I believe suicide is not immoral so long as the individual suiciding is sane and it harms no one else.

i agree with you on all counts. Though these days I'm probably edging more towards atheism than agnosticism.

[Xkcer Man]

The first one is essentially suicide. Do you ever hear in movies (the original Matrix, for example) where somebody is going to certain doom, and somebody else calls it suicide? The ends are the same (person has death wish, wishes to go through with it), but the means change, whether they pull the trigger or not.

I think that the second one is suicide also. It doesn't matter that they is a higher goal involved. The man still pasted his own guts on the wall.

su·i·cide ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s-sd)
n.
1. The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself.

www.dictionary.com

[Wally]

the first one, not suicide.

second one, suicide

i guess i'd fall under the reformed baptist label. not really sure...

suicide sin, sure. no more than any other sin that i know of though...

Originally Posted by Karen M

I am agnostic, and I believe suicide is not immoral so long as the individual suiciding is sane and it harms no one else.

im not actually sure that you could actually call anything immoral if you have no belief in any type of god. or atleast higher authority...

[JerryLove]

This my surprise no one, but I'm gonna go the exact opposite.

The crimial's intent was to kill himself. He accomplished this. That is suicide, the involvement of others is not important.

The terrorist's intent was to kill others, knowing that he would die in the attempt. I would still tend to consider this murder-suicide; but if I were going to call either of these events "not suicide" it is this latter one, becuase self-death was (arguably) a side-effect and not the goal.

[EleventhHour]

Non-denom Christian, raised Catholic.

1. Suicide by cop, there's even a name for it.

2. As Jerry put it, murder-suicide. It's difficult to tell the state of mind of someone in that state. To hate others to the point of not caring about yourself, that's very self-destructive.

Suicide is murder, one of those things just not meant to be, any more than murder is meant to be. I think it is forgiveable, not automatically a 'mortal' sin.

I feel really badly for anyone in a situation so bad life seems like the worse of two evils, but I think one's state of mind is usually pretty clouded when in a suicidal state.

[Brent]

Why does it matter if one was suicide and one was not or any other combination of it? If you're asking because some people think it's the "unpardonable sin" or whatever (which, with your beliefs, why does it matter anyway?) then I think it's a moot point. Whether it's a convict with cop-killing intentions trying to escape from prison or an Islamic extremist suicide bomber you could be pretty certain that neither one knows Christ as their savior with those kinds of actions and affiliations. So I ask...what's the point?

[Lyle]

1. A convict who hates cops attempts to escape prison. He aquires a gun somewhere during his attempted escape, and he eventually comes to a dead end with about 25 cops all armed in his way. He knows if he draws his gun they will shoot him, but he figures that life in prison is not worth living and he wants to kill a cop. He therefore draws his gun and of course, the 25 armed cops shoot him down. Does this count as suicide? He didn't actually kill shoot or stab himself; it was the cops who shot him.

Who killed him? Not as in the cops.. He knew that by drawing the gun he would die, therefore it would go to show that he warrented his own death... And killed himself... He didn't have to die there, and it was only by his own choice....
I could jump off a cliff, though I could argue that it wasn't me killing myself, but rather the ground doing it for me.. In this case the convict used the prison gaurds as an nstrument to kill himself...

2. An Islamic extremist straps a bomb to his chest and walks into a store to commit a "suicide bombing." He blows himself and others around him up. Though his actions did happen to result in his own death, his main goal was the hurt or kill the others around him. Does this count as suicide?

Again, who killed him? This is a portion of murder and suicide and doesn't write it off as anything less because he did it in the name of Islam.. Again, I could jump off a cliff in the name of any religion, but when I died upon hitting the ground, it was still me killing myself...


Suicide is killing yourself, and in such a case is often considered murder.. Nobody has ever been tried for killing themselves, because they are a bit too dead...

[Miscellaneous]

I would say that both are suicide, but more agreeing with Jerrylove than with you (Karen M).

I would also say that suicide is not always a sin (as in the case of saving others -- such as the movie Armageddon)

Christian (Reformed, Presbyterian)

[BranOhMac]

To me, both are suicides. The guy who drew the gun on the cop, knew they would shoot him down, so that is suicide.

The other, definitely suicide.

I'm a Baptist and I take it your wanting to know if we believe someone will suffer eternal damnation for taking their life. Point blank, if they don't know Jesus, yes they will be eternally separated. If they knew Jesus as their Savior, that doesn't constitute a free trip to hell. Suicide, though horrible, is a work and we know through scripture that works can't get you saved or keep you saved, its the sole power of the Holy Spirit. I do believe however that a saved person who does commit suicide will suffer a stricter judgement.

[Karen M]

Thanks for your responses I just thought the conclusion of a certain conversation I had before was a bid odd, so I was checking other's opinions on the subject.

[JakeW]

Both are defnitly suicide. I see them in the same light as a guy shooting himself in the head. One could say he didn't kill himself, the bullet killed him. And before that the striker hit the bullet, the trigger pulled back the firing pin. Maybe the trigger killed him? Ultimatley his finger pulled the trigger so he killed himself.

These situations are similar they just have other people instead of firing pins or triggers. The first is espescially fitted to that example.

The second is even clearer I think. I don't think anywhere suicide is described as killing yourself only, or that suicide must be intent to kill yourself primarily. If a guy drives off a bridge with his wife in the car on purpose it's still suicide.

You actions = knowingly killing yourself = suicide

I think its alot more interesting to wonder if a skydiver who's parachute doesn't open is suicude. Does knowingly putting yourself in harms way that ends up in your death count as suicide? How big a chance of survival must there be before dying isn't suicide?

Jake

[pixnaps]

These situations are similar they just have other people instead of firing pins or triggers.

that could be seen as a crucial difference though... because people are autonomous agents (whereas obviously guns and triggers are not), so the agent directly responsible for the death in Scenario One is whoever shoots him.

Of course, the man himself was obviously indirectly responsible here... and the distinction is fine enough that you might even be able to assign some direct responsibility to him, I don't know...

However, on second thought i would now agree that it IS still suicide, because the person in question is intentionally acting in such a way as to bring about his own death. "Intent" is key.

I think its alot more interesting to wonder if a skydiver who's parachute doesn't open is suicude

this is FAR more clear-cut. simply, "NO", because he has no intent to die.

That's why heroism (eg leaping in front of a car to save a kid) isn't suicide, even when it means almost certain death, because the death was in no way intentional.

This might make you think we should doubt Scenario Two then, but i wouldn't, because Suicide Bombers still have an intent to die, it is simply in addition to their intent to kill other people.

Do you ever hear in movies (the original Matrix, for example) where somebody is going to certain doom, and somebody else calls it suicide?

that's just a figure of speech, or an exaggeration/hyperbole. What they really mean is "you may as well just commit suicide". This is quite clearly different from saying that what they are doing is actually literal suicide. Those movie examples tend to be heroism instead, which i've already discussed...

[JakeW]

Originally Posted by pixnaps

this is FAR more clear-cut. simply, "NO", because he has no intent to die.

That's why heroism (eg leaping in front of a car to save a kid) isn't suicide, even when it means almost certain death, because the death was in no way intentional.

I see what you mean Pix....

Now, just outta curiosity, how about those autonomus cops we were talking about. What if there was cop in a similar stand off situation. He can either draw and kill the criminal or not draw and be killed. Doesn't not drawing count as knowingly acting to cause your own death? Is the cop REALLY autonomous if he is simply trying *not* to commit suicide?

Jake

[Ted Logan]

I agree with Brent. What difference does it make whether we label it "suicide" or not? Both are sinful acts by people aiming to hurt or kill other people.