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Unread 11-04-2003, 08:48 PM   #1
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Ebay Guitar need advice.

Hello all. My wife bought me, for my birthday last month, an Estaban Guitar from HSN. It cost us like $100 bux and shipping, the delux model. Anyways I have had it for a few weeks now and I already have 2 broken strings and I put the second set on and it makes a buzzing/vibrating sound when I put my fret hand to do some chords. So I did some more reasearch from some of the websites you posted about comments, etc. I found out that depending on who you talk to that the guitar is cheap and won't last long. Okay so we are deciding to take it back and get our money back. Since then my wife made a bid on ebay for a cheep guitar, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=2569098948, for only $8.00 which looks exactly what I have with the esteban. Since just beginning I'm not sure how good quality this is. So the dealer has made a suggestion of this one instead, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=2566535257, my question is which one of these two guitars would you purchase? I'm a youth pastor and do not have a lot of money. I decided to do this because I love praise and worship music and would like to learn how to play it and my wife plays piano very well and so its a hobby that perhaps her and I can share in. Keep in mind my wife already bid and won the first guitar but the dealer said we can get out of it with the second one. So we are stuck with either one. I have no clue as to which one. I would like to purchase the 2nd one but it has nothing with it so I would have to purchase more stuff. I suppose would be okay since I did by the estaban for $100. So would the extra gear cost up to $100 or more? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Since I am learning I read the posts about purchasing a good guitar (around $400) but since I don't have the cash for that price I need something that would last a while and be a good guitar to learn on.

Thanks,
David

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Unread 11-04-2003, 10:13 PM   #2
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1) If at all possible stay away from the guitars you listed above. Due to physics if nothing else, you need a certain level of quality in a guitar that they simply don't offer. I started on a similar one many (many, many) years ago, and it lasted about 2 months before the neck warped, bridge lifted, etc, etc, etc.

2) Buying off ebay is very risky. You really have to know what you are looking at, ask a lot of questions, etc. in order to not get ripped off. If you don't know a lot about guitars, you definitely want to be careful, or you will end up with something like you listed above.

Now, assuming that you have already decided that saving money is worth the risk of buying off ebay, you need some direction as to what to look for.

First, let's talk quality: When I was trying to learn on the el cheapo I got so that I really didn't care to play it that much. When I got rid of the cheapee and got a real guitar it made all the difference in my desire to play, I practiced more, and learned much quicker.

Second, let's talk new vs. used: one thing you need to know is that a hugely important element of a quality guitar is a solid top, and solid top guitars get better with age. Therefore, a used solid top guitar will probably sound WAY better than the ones you discussed above. Some people have hang-ups about buying used, but with guitars you can get much more quality for the same or lower price than new.

Third, let's talk brand names: different guitar manufacturers make different lines that have levels of quality. Takamine, for instance starts with a $100 basic model and goes all the way up to about $2k for the fancier ones. You have to know something about the guitar makers different lines before you can know if you are looking at the beginner line or the custom shop line, so that complicates your search. You may get a lot of recommendations from folks on this site, but here's mine: search ebay for Conn guitars. they were made in Japan from the late 60's to early 80's, and like other Conn instruments were intended to be "student quality" at reasonable prices. I bought a beautiful flame maple Conn acoustic in 1974 for about $279 brand new, and a while back bought a nice rosewood model for my son-in-law for $80 off ebay. The rosewood sounds fantastic, looks really good, and will last him many years.

I'm sure there are other brands & models that may be the same as far as value, Conn is just one I am very familiar with, and have been very satisfied with for many years. Again, there is no comparison between these 2 Conns and the 2 you discussed above. If possible return the Estaban (though he puts on a great commercial, there is no way he would play that thing!), chalk the $8 one up to researching guitar quality, and buy an old, used, solid top, Japanese-made guitar for the same price as the Estaban.

I wish you all the best in your quest!
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Unread 11-04-2003, 10:51 PM   #3
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I agree and differ with some of the above opinions. If you are new to guitars, you should NOT be buying off eBay, not for any worry of being ripped off, but because its best to try out before you buy, then even with no experience you can seperate the crap from the worthwhile.

I do not agree however with sticking to brand names. I (along with many others on the boards) would recommend going to your nearest guitar store and trying out EVERYTHING in your price range. That way you are certain to get the guitar that sounds and feels the best to you.
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Unread 11-05-2003, 01:09 AM   #4
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well adn to some degree goinb above what you can afford is a good idea too because you can get the feel of all sorts of models... but yea i'd at least play a little above what you can afford... who knows you may be albe to talk the sales person down into your price range...
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Unread 11-05-2003, 06:16 AM   #5
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My advise is to go to a music store and play some guitars in your price range. Also, go with one of major brands. For example I personally play Fender and started with a DG-7 that I paid $99 for. I still have it and play it often.
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Unread 11-05-2003, 10:37 AM   #6
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Okay, a few things.

First, as RG pointed out, ebay is a very risky proposition. Sure, it's great for a few $20 items or what not. I've had good experiences with it in that regard. But I've also gotten burned by a guy with a mega-good rep. He didn't send me my product, and then reposted it for auction. I tried contacting him and he wouldn't respond.

Also, a lot of pawn shops pose as legit music stores online on ebay, and unload their crap, the stuff no one will touch in their store. The horror stories are too numerous to mention. "Crazy Ahmed's 'Y-Pay-Mor' Music and TV Pawn Shop" becomes "the West Coast Music Center" or "Pro Music Emporium" or something like that. And, here's the deal. You have no way of knowing. None at all! [BTW, if those are names of legit music stores, that was purely coincidental and incidental and nothing is intended or inferred.]

Basically, you can be pretty positive that any guitar under $100 is going to be crap. That's like 99% guaranteed.

Unless, of course, you found some insane deal somewhere from some guy who has no idea what he has, and you know full well what it's worth and know that you are making off like a bandit. The classic example of this would be getting a 1974 Strat for like $80 from a kid who inherited it from his dad and has no idea what it's worth, but wants to sell it to save up money for some Yamaha Iby-style superstrat shredder clone for $299 (which, to him is an expensive guitar) because Dick Slick from the Squealing Farts plays a siggy version of it. "Yeah, that guitar is for old-farts. This one's way better! It's more cooler!" "Sure, whatever you say, kid. So, how's $80?"

Or there's the sweet old lady down the street cleaning out her basement or attic and she finds her son's Gibson LP from 30 years ago, and figures if she got it for $100 back then, and it's all dusty and used, it's probably only worth $50 right now. Who knows, maybe she can get $75 for it! This is a lot like on the Antiques Roadshow where someone buys an heirloom for $50 at a garage sale or some small antiques shop or estate sale, and it ends up being valued/appraised at $5K, which usually happens at least once or twice each show.

But, apart from these scenarios, for the most part, anything under $100 is total crap. And, any store that sells you a guitar for $50, plus all those cheapo accessories that were listed on those auctions, either knows full well they're crap and are trying to pawn it off on you, or they are totally clueless, which I don't buy. Not if they are savvy enough to take advantage of ebay.

See, the important thing is, provided this is remotely important to you, that you educate yourself as much as possible about guitars so that you can become an informed buyer at first, and then an informed player.

Now, you said something rather interesting and very telling . . .

Quote:
Since I am learning I read the posts about purchasing a good guitar (around $400) but since I don't have the cash for that price I need something that would last a while and be a good guitar to learn on.
Here's the deal. A standard good guitar doesn't run for $400. A standard good guitar runs for about $1000. Now, that doesn't mean that a $1K guitar is automatically of good quality. I've seen poor quality guitars that list for $1K. But usually you will find guitars at $1K to be a reasonably good investment. FWIW, I've also seen poor or mediocre guitars list for about $3K or more, because the inflated price suggests to the less educated that it is supposed to be a better guitar, when it is just average.

And let's not even get started on cost-cutting practices.

Now, here's the tricky bit. A guitar between $1K and $100 will be of questionable value. NOT poor value. Questionable value. IOW, whether a guitar at a price between $100 and $1000 is good or not is in question. Only your expertise - what you learn, research, experience, so on - can answer that question. Ergo, discussing guitars on this board.

For instance, some guitars can be total crap at $800, whereas you can find very functional and utilitarian, albeit somewhat bland, guitars at $150 to $200. You need to know what to look for.

So, I often suggest, in the case of electrics for instance, to go get a Fender Strat (not Squier, an actual Fender) that's Made in Mexico, vs. Corona, CA. They are often referred to here as MexiStrats, SalsaStrats, MIM Strats, and so on. I've seen them go for $200 to $300 on sale at Guitar Center. That is a fully functional and practical guitar to learn on, and can be radically upgraded and hot-rodded. You can take that $200 guitar and upgrade it so it performs like a $5K guitar. No joke. Now, granted, you'll pay close to $1K to do it, but an approx 500% return on your investment isn't bad. Also, the upgrades can be done one job at a time, or all at once. And, because everything is screwed and bolted onto a Strat, it's very simple to hot-rod.

For an acoustic, hot-rodding isn't much of an option, apart from a new pickup, but still a lot of these principles apply.

Either way, if you are just starting out, you are not going to know a lot of this stuff. That's why education is so critical. For instance, how do you tell the difference between a total crap guitar for $179 and a virtually identical (as far as looks go) guitar that plays well and is an excellent value for $209 (only $30 more)? A beginner, or his or her parents, often won't know this. Very often, the people who work in that music store won't know that either. Especially in stores that mix "band" instruments with "rock" instruments. More on that later.

That's also why this is, IMHO, the worst advice you could ever get in the entire world of guitar buying: "Go to your local store and try out every guitar in your price range, and go with the one that you like the best (sounds/feels/plays/whatever the best)". Some problems with that.

First, what if all the guitars at your local store are crap? This happens so often it's pitiful. You go to your local music store, and they have one used Fender Strat for about $800, one Yamaha whatever for about $600, and the rest are all crap imports from Korea, trafficked by no-name-brands, all for under $200. If you have arbitrarily determined that your price range is $225 or whatever because that's all you have right now in your checking account, and/or you think that that's what a guitar should cost without any real-world understanding of quality musical instruments because you are new to all this, then the technical term for this is "you're screwed." There's no way that you will pay any attention or consider for a moment the only two decent guitars in the whole store. You are going to be picking from all the crap guitars. And, based on that above advice, you will, hopefully, be picking the least crappiest of all the crap guitars. You'll be getting crap, but it will be slightly better crap.

But here's the thing: it's still crap!! IOW, instead of getting this crappy Korean import for $179, you'll be getting that crappy Korean import for $189. Odds are, they could have been made right next to each other in the same sweat-shop by the same workers getting paid $10 a day.

I see this with startling regularity, and often these music stores don't even have the Fender or Yamaha in this example. Sometimes all they have is the crap and nothing else.

This scenario is especially rampant in music stores that mix "band" instruments (all the instruments for school band) and "rock" instruments, or "electric music" instruments (electric guitars, basses, amps, drums, keyboards, so on. Guitar Center stuff) rather than a store that specializes in just "rock" instruments, like Guitar Center. The reason for this is that most people in the "band and orchestra" world have absolutely no experience and sensibility in the "rock" world. They don't know how to cater to the special needs of the electric (or acoustic) guitarist, and view guitars and basses as just another instrument to sell.

I know this from experience because in every single music store like that that I have been in, in many major metroplexes here in TX, GA, and so on, fit that exact same profile. Usually, they have one guy in the guitar section, and he was a roadie, and de facto "guitar tech", for Cheap Trick or someone back in the early '80's, had a garage band that gigged a bit at a local club, and that's about it, if even that much, and he's usually not even remotely knowledgeable about what's new in "rock" instruments. If you're local guy is more knowledgeable than that, thank your lucky stars. But you can almost guarantee that everyone else in that store will be totally clueless, beyond what sku numbers they can order from the catalog.

A sharp, stark generalization, I know, but it squares with every single "general" music store I have been in over the last decade. The only "general" music store that was able to pull this off was MARS Music Superstore, only, they didn't, because they are now bankrupt and out of business.

Second, let's take one of the above scenarios a step further.
Quote:
For instance, how do you tell the difference between a total crap guitar for $179 and a virtually identical (as far as looks go) guitar that plays well and is an excellent value for $209 (only $30 more)?
Let's say that you set the cap on your "price-range" at $190, and you just can't see your way clear to pay more, plus, both these guitars look identical to you. You can't tell the difference between the two. Well, hey!, you just saved $30! Congratulations! You came in under your price-range and got quite a deal! Or did you? Squiers are notorious around here for being problematic, while the aforementioned SalsaStrats are quite handy, and are a good value for the money.

If you knew this distinction, you could have held out for $30 more for the better guitar.

But a newbie wouldn't know this. Guitar companies and dealers who carry identical looking cheapo lines are counting on this. It often means the difference between selling a guitar and not selling one when someone just doesn't have the money, or awareness, to pony up for quality.

That's another key point.

Quote:
"Go to your local store and try out every guitar in your price range, and go with the one that you like the best (sounds/feels/plays/whatever the best)"
I see this advice given to so many people here who say up front that they are just getting started and are just learning, and, based on other posts and threads from the Logistics forum, are often struggling with even the basic chords (hey, we all have to start somewhere, right?).

So, how is this newbie going to have the maturity, hand-coordination, knowledge, experience, feel, and basic musicality, to be able to pick-up a guitar and give it a "test-drive" ("test-play"?) and know what to feel for, listen for, look for, and so on? That would be a lot like having a 15 year-old kid with about a week's worth of driving experience, who just got his learner's permit, go test-drive a bunch of new cars and write a review for Car and Driver Magazine. "So, Junior, which car is the better value?" Not likely.

Coupled with the other example, send that same kid to Biff's Used Car Lot, and have him test drive a bunch of clunkers, all going for about $2K to $4K, and asking him which car is the better value. Are you kidding? But isn't that exactly what we propose when we send a kid to "go to your local store and try out every guitar in your price range, and go with the one that you like the best (sounds/feels/plays/whatever the best)"?

Not only that, it takes about 6 months to know if we truly like the sound of a new guitar! It takes that long for our ears and brain connection to attenuate to the new listening experience.

Now, granted, if you play a bunch of crap guitars, then get a good one, then, yeah, you'll immediately notice an improvement. That will be a dramatic revelation. But to fully appreciate the tonality and timbre at the level most people talk about around here, with slightly chunky this and slightly darker that and so on, it takes about 6 months.

Case in point: DiMarzio pickups in Parker Guitars.

Ken Parker revolutionized guitars with his Fly. It's only 3.5 lbs, yet has the sustain of a guitar made of granite! It has to do with the construction of the guitar, and sound transference and resonance. He has about 8 to 16 patents on it. They guitar literally (or almost literally) comes alive in your hands. So, when you play it for the first time, as you can imagine, it has an amazing tone. That is, for about the first 6 months.

See, the pickups stink. Basically, Ken was in NY when he was working on the prototype Fly, and it needed a custom sized pickup. Well, Larry DiMarzio was in NY, and Seymour is out in Cali. So, instead of custom Duncans, Ken went with custom DiMarzio, probably because Larry and the boys made it real easy for Ken to drop by anytime, being figuratively down the street. Unfortunately, the pickups don't cut it. But you can't hear that at first because your ear is still adjusting to the radically new way of hearing a guitar, given it's greater resonance and responsiveness.

Then, usually about after 6 months, people start to notice that the pickups sound kind of "rizzy". It's been described as "A fly flying around in your head" which was probably not the Fly motif or connatation that Ken had in mind when he named his guitar the Parker Fly.

Well, thru an interesting turn of events, Parkers now come with Duncans on some models, and it is a custom option, tho I imagine eventually, the DiMarzios will be completely discontinued.

Now, usually only experienced, mature guitarists buy Parkers. IOW, people who have maturity, hand-coordination, knowledge, experience, and basic musicality. And if they can't spot (or, rather, hear) the rizziness of a DiMarzio pickup in a Parker after 6 solid months of playing and gigging, how is an inexperienced, not-mature, uncoordinated, naive, not-yet-musical newbie going to know a good guitar when he sees/hears/plays one after a 5 minute test-drive at the local Guitar Center?

Those are just some thoughts on guitar buying.

In terms of acoustics, for your needs, I would suggest starting with a Big Baby Taylor for whatever you can get it for (usually about $300 at GC). That is a good, practical, easy to play guitar that sounds great (in a functional, get-the-job-done kind of way) and will last you quite some time, especially as you learn and develop.

Chesh

PS - The above comments are in no way intended to slam any "general music stores". A lot of them are good people, and if you can find a good deal there, then great! But, from my experience, it is not an ideal place to get an education in "Rock" instruments. That also goes for acoustic guitars as well.

Last edited by CheshireCat; 11-05-2003 at 10:52 PM.
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Unread 11-05-2003, 11:21 AM   #7
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I've been really impressed with Yamaha's cheap guitars. If I was buying a $100 guitar on ebay, I'd look for something like:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ory=33049&rd=1

I have two of these that I bought on ebay, and lately I've been playing them more than my Gibsons.

OR

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ory=33033&rd=1

I bought my daughter a child-size Yamaha acoustic, and it's a surpising good guitar. (The auction's for a full-size acoustic.)
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Unread 11-05-2003, 11:30 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BluesJunkie
I've been really impressed with Yamaha's cheap guitars.
I second this. I have been really impressed with Yamaha products. Definitly take a look at them.
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Unread 11-05-2003, 02:06 PM   #9
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Thanks

My wife and I decided on the cheaper one. Here is the reasoning. We already bid for it and need to honor our debts. So I will just chock it up to learning and pray that we will be able to come across a wonderful guitar for our price range. I really appreciate all your advice and suggestions. In fact I will go down to my music store and check out what they have and play a few, if I can, and see the differences. I, more than likely, will be posting again.

Again, thanks for all your help and advice. I really appreciate it.

In Christ,
David
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Unread 11-05-2003, 02:17 PM   #10
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How much did you end up paying for it? You said $100, but it looked like $8 on the website. Did I read that correctly?

BTW, what is your price range, and why?

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Unread 11-05-2003, 02:37 PM   #11
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Also, no matter what guitar you get, figure in a trip to the Luthier or Guitar Tech to make sure that your instrument is in playable condition, i.e. action is adjusted, slot-height in the nut is low enough, the bridge is properly intonated, and so on.

This is critical because millimeters = miles, and if the string height is too high, or there is too much action in the middle of the neck (determined by the amount of bow in the neck), or the guitar is not properly intonated, you are going to have so many problems playing whatever guitar you get that it will be a virtual nightmare, and, you naively not knowing this, might blame yourself thru "lack of talent" or some such reasoning.

Case in point, a simple open chord can be a harrowing experience on a guitar with the string height off of the nut being too high, especially on an F Major chord, which will totally kill your hand if the string height is off.

$50 can save you years of trouble!

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Unread 11-05-2003, 05:59 PM   #12
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Chesh, I read it the same way - Estaban was about $100 but it's going back, the ebay item they won was $8, and the "upgraded" ebay item was $50.

All of my comments were based on a couple of critical assumptions: 1) davidruth knows very little about guitars and 2) davidruth has VERY little money. All of the other comments above are valid, there is a huge pile of reasons for not buying a cheapo guitar, etc., BUT in this case price trumps all the other details. My understanding of this situation is davidruth is a married youth pastor on a very strict budget who wants the best guitar he can get for the least amount of money.

Given those facts, I would still look for a 1970's Japanese-made solid-top guitar to learn on. davidruth - I'll even pay the $8 if you tell the seller not to ship it to you (it will cost more than that to ship it).
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Unread 11-05-2003, 09:03 PM   #13
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Thanks Rhythm_guy I appreciate the offer, we already paid it. We aren't so broke that $40 bux will kill us. It is a good lesson learned. Plus according to him I will be completely satisfied and if I am not I can return it. But it will be a reminder how better it is to research than to make an unwise decision.

But the thing about it is if you are new and do not know anyone who plays guitar to ask questions like these its hard to make a wise decision and my wife did the best she could with little understanding. So they say experience will cost you and in my case it was "affordable".

Plus the benefit is that I have a 6 year old who loves my guitar already and I have a feeling that he will get into it one day and break it and at least I'm not out $400 only $40

In Christ,
David
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Unread 11-05-2003, 10:30 PM   #14
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RG - I totally concur. I'm all for cheap equipment if it get's the job done, but unfortunately, that can be a pretty big IF!! Ergo, a hot-rodded Mexi-Strat.

I like your idea of the used 70's Jap solid top guitar, tho laminate tops can also get the job done. But, solid tops do sound a lot better.

BTW, to reiterate, whatever guitar anyone get's, get it "set-up" by a Guitar Tech or Luthier.

This is important for two reasons. The first is listed above. Second, you want to establish a relationship with a good GT or Luthier who can educate you. All those little $25 and $50 jobs can add up to one heck of an education as you pick his/her brain and expertise for info. Worth it's weight in gold!

Chesh

Last edited by CheshireCat; 11-05-2003 at 10:37 PM.
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