Waiting for word from Lambeth

**Ted Logan** · 10-15-2003, 02:09 PM

I don't know about you guys, but I have a serious anticipation issue going on. I'm practically giddy with excitement (and a little bit of dread) concerning the outcome of this week's events at Lambath. Although the meetings are closed and the best info we're likely to get will be in the form of a press release days from now, I wish I had were a fly on the wall in the palace...

**Ridley's Own** · 10-15-2003, 03:11 PM

Archbishop Eames, the primate of Ireland, gave a press briefing today. here's the ACNS bit on it:

Anglican Communion News Service

**Ridley's Own** · 10-15-2003, 04:50 PM

ENS says there will be a final press conference tomorrow at 6 p.m. London time (1 p.m. ET). Nothing seems to be leaking.

**Ted Logan** · 10-15-2003, 04:55 PM

Thanks! He said a whole lot of nothing, but that's to be expected. I'm glad that the whole thing is progressing in apparently a very collegial and open manner.

While I believe it is necessary to condemn the abandonment of the authority of Scripture as exemplified in the events which have led to this conference, it is my dearest hope that unity will be preserved.

If there were established a parallel province of the Anglican Communion in the US for conservatives, would that be enough for any of the conservatives? It would not be so for me. If the Anglican Communion will tolerate the actions of the ECUSA, even by fragmenting the ECUSA into two provinces, how has anything really changed?

At the same time, I'm also troubled by the fact that we have tolerated heretics such as John Shelby Spong and others who similarly wish to undermine the Gospel. This single issue has opened my eyes to a myriad of concerns which are very troubling.

**Ridley's Own** · 10-15-2003, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Logan

Thanks! He said a whole lot of nothing, but that's to be expected. I'm glad that the whole thing is progressing in apparently a very collegial and open manner.

I think he was just reassuring folk that the primates hadn't gotten into a fist fight, thought I wonder if that wouldn't settle it more easily.

Quote:

If there were established a parallel province of the Anglican Communion in the US for conservatives, would that be enough for any of the conservatives? It would not be so for me. If the Anglican Communion will tolerate the actions of the ECUSA, even by fragmenting the ECUSA into two provinces, how has anything really changed?

A second province would mean a de facto rejection of GC's actions. I think that would placate the cons.

**Ted Logan** · 10-15-2003, 10:05 PM

But only if the Anglican Communion only recognizes the parallel province would it be a de facto condemnation of the decisions of the ECUSA. If there is established a second province, but the Anglican Communion continues to recognize both, then all they've done is say, "Okay, since you two can't get along, you both have to go to your rooms."

**Ridley's Own** · 10-15-2003, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Logan

But only if the Anglican Communion only recognizes the parallel province would it be a de facto condemnation of the decisions of the ECUSA. If there is established a second province, but the Anglican Communion continues to recognize both, then all they've done is say, "Okay, since you two can't get along, you both have to go to your rooms."

That's one way it could be spun, but the fact is that if the ABC actually says we're going to have one conservative and one liberal province, then that is admitting that ECUSA is dysfunctional as a church, and would be a condemnation of the policies that led to it. I think you're wanting to reach too far.

Maybe I'm reaching too little.

**Ted Logan** · 10-15-2003, 11:40 PM

I don't know. I'm very conflicted on this subject. Six months ago, I would not have thought twice about it. Let them do what they want, and let us do what we want, and let's be a happy family. But now, I'm not so sure.

**Athanasius** · 10-16-2003, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

That's one way it could be spun, but the fact is that if the ABC actually says we're going to have one conservative and one liberal province, then that is admitting that ECUSA is dysfunctional as a church, and would be a condemnation of the policies that led to it. I think you're wanting to reach too far.

Maybe I'm reaching too little.

From sources at the AAC convention...somewhere in the range of 60% will only take one province in the US, that being the orthodox one. Several conservatives (the other 40%+) will take the parallel provinces as a placation...but I will not.

If a harsh rebuke is not issued by Lambeth, and if it does not carry the weight of swift excommunication...I'm out. Out of ECUSA, out of the Anglican Communion. I am not going to be a part of any communion that allows anything close to what ECUSA has degenerated itself into as a part of itself. We are told to "expel the immoral brother" and "cut off the right hand" that offends us. If, when presented with this opportunity, the Primates do not take it...I cannot in good conscience be a part of this anymore.

**Ted Logan** · 10-16-2003, 11:24 AM

A statement has been released by the Primates. The news is dire.

http://www.anglicancommunion.org/acn.../acns3633.html

Quote:

To this extent, therefore, we must make clear that recent actions in New Westminster and in the Episcopal Church (USA) do not express the mind of our Communion as a whole, and these decisions jeopardise our sacramental fellowship with each other. We have a particular concern for those who in all conscience feel bound to dissent from the teaching and practice of their province in such matters. Whilst we reaffirm the teaching of successive Lambeth Conferences that bishops must respect the autonomy and territorial integrity of dioceses and provinces other than their own, we call on the provinces concerned to make adequate provision for episcopal oversight of dissenting minorities within their own area of pastoral care in consultation with the Archbishop of Canterbury on behalf of the Primates.

...

If his consecration proceeds, we recognise that we have reached a crucial and critical point in the life of the Anglican Communion and we have had to conclude that the future of the Communion itself will be put in jeopardy. In this case, the ministry of this one bishop will not be recognised by most of the Anglican world, and many provinces are likely to consider themselves to be out of Communion with the Episcopal Church (USA). This will tear the fabric of our Communion at its deepest level, and may lead to further division on this and further issues as provinces have to decide in consequence whether they can remain in communion with provinces that choose not to break communion with the Episcopal Church (USA).

Similar considerations apply to the situation pertaining in the Diocese of New Westminster.

As I feared, it appears that the primates (as a body) have taken a very soft action against the ECUSA and tried to balance its rejection of the actions of our GC with further attempts at preserving unity. This obsession with unity even at the cost of heresy is disturbing to me.

**Athanasius** · 10-16-2003, 11:28 AM

Jonathan officially taps out.

**Ted Logan** · 10-16-2003, 11:31 AM

It was my dearest hope and prayer that the ECUSA and province of Canada would be given an ultimatum: Rescind or you're out. This pussyfooting crap of "You might cause the Communion to rip apart" is worthless to me. I'm not jumping ship, but I just lost a good deal of hope.

**Ridley's Own** · 10-16-2003, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Logan

It was my dearest hope and prayer that the ECUSA and province of Canada would be given an ultimatum: Rescind or you're out. This pussyfooting crap of "You might cause the Communion to rip apart" is worthless to me. I'm not jumping ship, but I just lost a good deal of hope.

I don't know. It seems to me that the primates are seriously working towards resolving the issue without forcing an ultimatum. I don't know what could have been done in 2 days, anyway, so I'm not sure what I was expecting.

Out of curiosity, I wonder who has made note of the first paragraph on page 514 of the BCP...

Consecration of a Bishop, pg. 514

2500 Posts

**Ted Logan** · 10-16-2003, 01:03 PM

Interesting.

**Ridley's Own** · 10-16-2003, 07:09 PM

This is what Dean Zahl, the dean of our cathedral in B'ham, had to say. He's on the board of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals and went to the thing in Dallas.

And - a Word from the Dean
by The Very Rev. Paul F.M. Zahl

The Primates’ statement from Lambeth, October 16th, which we were all so anxiously awaiting, is reassuring. It is better than many of us had thought it would be. Why?

First, it re-affirms Lambeth 1998, which stated the traditional Christian view of human sexuality.

Second, it calls for "adequate provision for episcopal oversight of dissenting minorities within their own area of pastoral care in consultation with the Archbishop of Canterbury on behalf of the Primates". So now, a little more than in theory, our beleaguered colleagues in New England, the Pacific Northwest, and the Middle Atlantic, etc., have a hand of aid offered them.

Third, the statement concludes that the future of the Communion is "in jeopardy", for "in most of our provinces the election of Canon Gene Robinson would not have been possible since his chosen lifestyle would give rise to a canonical impediment to his consecration as a bishop". The Primates add, "in this case, the ministry of this one bishop will not be recognized by most of the Anglican world." Thus the specific urgency of the situation created by ECUSA’s General Convention is affirmed and not minimized.

Now some will say that the Primates did not go far enough. The gathering at Lambeth should have expelled ECUSA from the Communion! But many decades of experience within Anglicanism made me realize in advance that such a step would have been most unlikely given the givens of international church life.

Yet, the Primates did speak out! All I had hoped for was some explicit affirmation of our place to stand. This, they have provided, and even more.

I feel helped and buoyed by the Primates’ statement. In the run-up to it, there had been indications that nothing would be done. Doing nothing would have been a "no" to what I and many others hold very dear. But I trust we can start to live with this.

Would it not now be wonderful if Gene Robinson decided not to be consecrated? Such a decision would be Christ-like.