The Apostolic Church in the Creed

Mathaytace ><> · 10-12-2003, 04:10 PM

I need some help.

In the Nicene Creed is the term "Apostolic Church" referring to Apostolic Succession (which I hold to) or a more general term? I will be looking this up other places. (No offense)

Thanks and God Bless!

**Ted Logan** · 10-12-2003, 07:40 PM

It refers to apostolic succession and that we represent the Church as founded by God through the apostles.

**Athanasius** · 10-13-2003, 07:24 AM

It refers to the "catholic" church which was established by the Apostles. It does not have anything to do with some kind of mystical power-transferance from Presbyter to Presbyter (or Overseer to Overseer for that matter)... The idea of this magical "apostolic succession" is not a Biblical idea, nor is it a prevailent idea amongst the Apostolic Fathers.

The important thing as far as "apostolic church" is that it keeps in the teachings of the apostles, thus setting it apart from the "non-apostolic churches". Let us remember that many apostates could claim "apostolic succession" in a line of hands...but they certainly couldn't claim succession in a line of teaching.

Since our authority does not come from flesh, but from the Bible...looking at "apostolic" here in any way other than a "continuous line of teaching" is rather silly.

Mike Graham · 10-13-2003, 08:09 AM

Yea!!! Jonathan agrees with me!

And his answer is final, since he is the smartest guy here (as evidensed by his agreeing with me.)

Mathaytace ><> · 10-13-2003, 02:15 PM

But it does not just say Catholic. Yes the Church is Catholic. But we just can't ignore the term Apostolic.

Mathaytace ><> · 10-13-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

And his answer is final, since he is the smartest guy here (as evidensed by his agreeing with me.)

I know you are probably joking. But, um, no.

Mathaytace ><> · 10-13-2003, 02:19 PM

Quote:

The important thing as far as "apostolic church" is that it keeps in the teachings of the apostles, thus setting it apart from the "non-apostolic churches".

The early Church practiced succession.

Are you also saying that the orthodox (Catholic, Orthodox and Anglican) churches are not following Apostolic teaching?

Mike Graham · 10-13-2003, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathaytace><>

But it does not just say Catholic. Yes the Church is Catholic. But we just can't ignore the term Apostolic.

It says that the church is "holy catholic," though the catholic church is obviously holy.

This clause reinforces the same idea multiple times. "Holy catholic and apostolic" could be summed up in one word or even eliminated if this was trying to be overly concise, but it is not.

**Ridley's Own** · 10-13-2003, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon

It refers to the "catholic" church which was established by the Apostles. It does not have anything to do with some kind of mystical power-transferance from Presbyter to Presbyter (or Overseer to Overseer for that matter)... The idea of this magical "apostolic succession" is not a Biblical idea, nor is it a prevailent idea amongst the Apostolic Fathers.

The important thing as far as "apostolic church" is that it keeps in the teachings of the apostles, thus setting it apart from the "non-apostolic churches". Let us remember that many apostates could claim "apostolic succession" in a line of hands...but they certainly couldn't claim succession in a line of teaching.

Egads! Oliver Cromwell strikes again.

If that is true, Jon, then what would be the purpose of John 20, Acts 1 and Paul receiving the laying on of hands from the other Apostles?

Mike Graham · 10-13-2003, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathaytace><>

I know you are probably joking. But, um, no.

um... yes.

Mathaytace ><> · 10-13-2003, 02:24 PM

Are you saying that you can just declare truth because you like it?

Mike Graham · 10-13-2003, 02:32 PM

I was joking. I'm sorry, tone is pretty hard to express on the internet.

Joking...

Mathaytace ><> · 10-13-2003, 02:38 PM

I thought so, just your second post confused me.

Sorry for the unneeded issue

God Bless you in Christ's Peace!

**Athanasius** · 10-13-2003, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridley's Own

Egads! Oliver Cromwell strikes again.

If that is true, Jon, then what would be the purpose of John 20, Acts 1 and Paul receiving the laying on of hands from the other Apostles?

There continues to be an Apostolic office?

I certainly don't "poo poo" the laying on of hands as the sign of the recognition of God's called. No, not at all. I hope it didn't come across as if I did.

In today's forecast: Sunny in the morning, followed by "latter rain" around Ridley's place.

And, my other young Anglo-Catholic friend. "Catholic" determines scope in the each of the creeds, that they include all of the Church.

"Apostolic" determines under what qualification a church can really be counted as a part. It is a decendency of teaching. How to seperate the wheat from the tares, so to speak.

"Succession, you say, is the chief way, for any Christian man to avoid antichrist. I grant you, if you mean the succession of doctrine." - Bishop Jewel (of Salisbury, 17th Century)

**Ridley's Own** · 10-13-2003, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlwaysReforming

There continues to be an Apostolic office?

No. There continues to be the charism that Christ gave to the apostles. There is a difference between the authority granted to an Apostle to make Holy Writ and the sacramental purpose of the bishop. If sacramentally there is nothing going on in either episcopal consecrations or presbyterian ordinations ('presbyerian' meaning ordination to the priesthood), there seems little reason to do them at all, and little reason to bar the layman from presiding at any of the sacraments.

Congratulations. You're a congregationalist.

Quote:

I certainly don't "poo poo" the laying on of hands as the sign of the recognition of God's called. No, not at all. I hope it didn't come across as if I did.

No poo poo-ing going on. Just making the laying on of hands to be totally pointless, and, to not put too fine a point on it, a bit creepy. I am very pleased to see that outgoing Presidents and CEOs don't lay hands on their sucessors to be a sign that they've been called to serve.

Quote:

In today's forecast: Sunny in the morning, followed by "latter rain" around Ridley's place.

Oh Jon, you know that's not true... It's always raining on my parade.