[Lightknight]

Ok buddy, here it is.

[Danny]

Okay, for the sake of keeping this organized, I think we should both clearly state our stances, and exactly what they entail. After that, I'll make an opening statement, with prooftexts, and you can formulate a rebuttal. Sound good?

I will be defending the position of five-point Calvinism.

What that entails is this:

Total Depravity
I believe that man, since the fall of Adam, has been rendered completely dead in his sins; entirely incapable of seeking God, receiving salvation, or doing any good at all without the direct intervention of God in the sinner's life.

Unconditional Election
I believe that God, before the foundation of the world, in love for His creation, chose a number of this fallen man to be redeemed unto salvation. This group of people will hereby be referred to as the "elect."

Limited Atonement
I believe that, while Christ's death and ressurection did accomplish something for all mankind, the ultimate purpose in His shedding of blood was for the effectual atonement of the sins of the elect; not for the possible atonement of all mankind.

Irresistible Grace
I believe that God the Father effectually draws all those whom He has chosen to receive salvation, and that all those who are effectually drawn will repent of their sins and be regenerated.

Perseverence of the Saints
I believe that God will not allow any of His chosen sheep to fall away and be lost, but that He will sustain them, causing them to persevere in their faith until the day they are glorified in Heaven.

[Lightknight]

First things first.
Total depravity- Job, he was righteous enough to please God. Enoch and Elijah, pleased God well enough for Him to "take them home". David, a man after God's own heart (he pleased God with his singing way back when he was a shepherd or in other words he saught God). In the old testament, "Salvation" didn't mean you went to heaven. It only meant you were put on the good side of the great chasm.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by lightknight77

First things first.
Total depravity- Job, he was righteous enough to please God. Enoch and Elijah, pleased God well enough for Him to "take them home". David, a man after God's own heart (he pleased God with his singing way back when he was a shepherd or in other words he saught God). In the old testament, "Salvation" didn't mean you went to heaven. It only meant you were put on the good side of the great chasm.

I'll get back to this argument, but can you please outline exactly what your stance is, first? There are many, many, many variations of Arminianism, and I want to know exactly what I'm debating against....

[Lightknight]

Unconditional Election- you say that God has already chosen who is going to be saved. This cannot work because of many verses.
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (this is a gift to those who believe. Not the elect God has chosen but instead any who believe.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (again, whosoever)
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (the world. that's the entire would and not the elect. Of course some people will not be saved so the verse says that the world through him MIGHT be saved. So it was possible that the world could have been saved but from the first person who denied Jesus that was no longer possible)

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

I'll get back to this argument, but can you please outline exactly what your stance is, first? There are many, many, many variations of Arminianism, and I want to know exactly what I'm debating against....

Is it alright if i just attack your statements? Because of the large number of calvinists in CGR i am the one who is always getting attacked. (by attack i mean the offensive side. you would only need to defend your points. Regardless of what type of Arminian i am if you successfully defend these points it would be a defeat for one of the Arminian's points)

[Danny]

Originally Posted by lightknight77

Is it alright if i just attack your statements? Because of the large number of calvinists in CGR i am the one who is always getting attacked. (by attack i mean the offensive side. you would only need to defend your points. Regardless of what type of Arminian i am if you successfully defend these points it would be a defeat for one of the Arminian's points)

Fair enough.

When I'm finished eating, and when The Screen Savers is over, I'll go ahead and type up an opening statement, with prooftexts. From there, you can feel free to attack away.

[Lightknight]

ok, i may not get to it for a while. I have a lot of work cut out for me. Im or pm me when you're done.

[Danny]

Okay, so I'm finally getting around to making my opening statement. Since I already described pretty adequately what each point entails, I won't bother explaining them all again; I'll just offer prooftexts and my interpretation of them. Feel free to take as long as you need to to respond, and please address each of my points individually (preferably by using [QUOTE] tags).

P.S.: I was originally going to offer scripture for each individual point, but in the middle of doing so, I realized that I couldn't really do that. Calvinism is a system, not just a list of points, and as such, it does not properly function without each of its points; it is a cohesive whole, and as such, it must be treated as one.

Jeremiah 13:23
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

Pretty self-explanatory; those who are "accustomed to doing evil" (sinful man) cannot do good.

Romans 8:7-9
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Once again: the mind set on the flesh—sinful man (which is ALL of us, before being regenerated)—cannot subject itself to the law of God, and cannot please God.

John 3:19-21
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.

Okay, now we see that "everyone who does evil" (sinful man) hates the Light, and does not come into the Light, but that "he who practices truth" comes to the Light. The question is, who is he who practices truth? Obviously, this is not a work of man, as this passage says that "his deeds [have been] wrought in God." John 6:44 re-affirms this, and clarifies farther, by telling us that only those whom the Father draws come to the Light (Jesus).

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

Also note that this is a cause an effect statement; the Father draws, and the one drawn is raised up on the last day. Not a word is mentioned of the one drawn having the "free will" to accept or reject this drawing. The Father's drawing is effectual. In fact, the Greek word used for "draws" there is the same word you might use to say, "Billy draws water from the well." It means literally, to take. Not to "woo," or any other such thing.

This principle of cause and effect is echoed throughout scripture:

Deuteronomy 30:6
6 "Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live."

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."

John 5:21
21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.

Again, none of these scriptures mention anything about us having to "make the choice" to love God, or to follow Him. The choice has already been made by God. To quote a source that's decidedly less inspired, but is still relevent in clarifying my point:

"You didn't come here to make a choice. You've already made the choice. You came here to understand why."
—The Oracle, from The Matrix Reloaded

When we are saved, it's not about us making the choice to follow God, for that choice has already been made; regeneration is about God manifesting the choice which He made before the foundation of the world, in us.

Ephesians 1:4-6
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

John 15:16
16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you."

However, we must also realize that there is a balance between the sovereign election of God, and our responsibility to make the choice to follow Him. Now, as much as a contradiction as that sounds like, I never denied that we must make the choice to follow God; it's just that this is not the focus of regeneration.

Only those who have been chosen by God will receive Him,

John 6:65
65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

and likewise, all who have been chosen by God will receive Him.

John 6:37
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

And finally, this leaves us with one last point. While it is technically possible to revoke your faith and thus, lose your salvation, God will cause His chosen ones to persevere in their faith, never allowing them to "fall away."

Jeremiah 32:39-40
39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
40 "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

John 6:38-39
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

John 10:27-29
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

[Lightknight]

Jeremiah 13:23- this can be explained by, Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
It's the same thing but if you have made your heart evil then you will do evil. "what goes in must come out" God can change them. Remember the Pharoh? God hardened his heart. Perhaps the Pharoh would have released the slaves much sooner. Why am i saying this? Because it is the what you have become that you act upon. Have you ever known a "christian" who was really nice but then fell away? They were good for awhile and were able to do good things. Then their heart hardened and they became evil and now do bad things.

Romans 8:7-8
If you are not saved by Christ you cannot please God. Ok, i have no arguement with that. But before Jesus there were other requirements, don't forget.

John 3:19-21
This is everyone who does evil. Think of it obviously, if it is impossible to do good while unsaved (Romans 8:7-8) then of course evil doers aren't in the light. But if they get saved then they are. You've seen people with a sinful past get radically saved and then they began doing good works. Total change of personality.

John 6:44
Ok, "draws them". If God doesn't speak to them through the word or people or through His spirit then of course they can't get saved. You can't serve what you do not know. then the next verses. (i don't know how to change color)
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me
Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
This just restates what i said and it is a good verse against predestination. See, it says that you have to have heard of God and learned of Him should go to him. Notice also that it says EVERY man (of course man means all genders and children too) and not just the elect.

Deuteronomy 30:6
again with the "will", that is future tense and does not help the arguement of predestination. If you give your life to God, He will change you and make you new.

Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
(this verse starts the chapter by saying that when thy turn to God He will do these things)

Ezekiel 36:26-27
God was saying that He was doing this for His own name because the children of Isreal defiled it, in other words, here their evil deeds actually drew God's attention and made Him move. And, this is still in future tense so predestined doesn't work here.

John 5:21
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
God chooses the ones who do the above. This is how Jesus decides who to give life to. If they, (the person) hears the word and believes in God the are saved. It is their actions.

Ephesians 1:4-6
Here is the biggest problem. It is automaticly assumed that He is chosing individuals. Us could also mean those who Believe in Him. Which would be a very general term. It was predestined that Jesus would come and die for our sins. No one disputes that. In the same way everyone who believes in Him was too. But that isn't the individual or the elect.
Then here is the big proof for my statement.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
AFTER you believed you were sealed into that promise. I hadn't even seen this verse before you put the scripture there. How could you specifically be predestined if you aren't even a member of them until you believe. This is pivitol.

John 15:16
Again, you is the group of believers and not the individual. Once you believe you are then placed in that group.

John 6:65
I already explained this with John 6:44

John 6:37
No, it doesn't say that He will not allow them to fall away. It says that He won't cast them away. If the person chooses to renounce his faith then he himself is casting himself away and not God who loves him.
Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
(note that Hebrews 6:6 states that it is possible for people to fall away. But the whole thing says that if you "fall away" after being enlightened then it is impossible to go back to salvation)

Jeremiah 32:39-40
I already explained this as being the Christians and not specific people that God has picked out. In order to become one you must believe.

John 6:38-39
Jesus came to do the will of the Father. Jesus has been given the believers. We are saved in Christ because he rose again.
John 10:27-29
The sheep being all of us Christians.

Ephesians 1:13-14
This really helps my arguement. It is the verse i explained earlier before i got to this verse. It says after you hear the message of truth and believe then you are saved. AFTER

Ephesians 4:30
complies with the above

Philippians 1:6
ok. God will continue the good work on his children until the day of Christ.

Thanks bro for all your time and diligence. I hope i haven't offended you.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by lightknight77

Jeremiah 13:23- this can be explained by, Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

You're proving my point. Evil people can only do evil things continually.

It's the same thing but if you have made your heart evil then you will do evil.

"Making our hearts evil" is not necessary. Our hearts are evil by default, until we are regenerated.

God can change them.

I'm aware of this. It's called regeneration. What you don't seem to be grasping is the fact that ONLY God can change them. We cannot change ourselves. We are inherently evil until we are made alive in Christ. This is the doctrine of Total Depravity.

Remember the Pharoh? God hardened his heart. Perhaps the Pharoh would have released the slaves much sooner.

This does not mean that he was inherently good, or even "neutral" to begin with.

Romans 3:10, 12b
10 as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
12 ...THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

Why am i saying this? Because it is the what you have become that you act upon.

That sentence was less than coherent...can you clarify what you meant?

Have you ever known a "christian" who was really nice but then fell away? They were good for awhile and were able to do good things. Then their heart hardened and they became evil and now do bad things.

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Answer your question?

Romans 8:7-8
If you are not saved by Christ you cannot please God. Ok, i have no arguement with that. But before Jesus there were other requirements, don't forget.

What's your point? Regeneration still occured in the Old Testament. It HAD to have occured, unless you're prepared to just disreguard all the scripture I've provided on Total Depravity.

John 3:19-21
This is everyone who does evil. Think of it obviously, if it is impossible to do good while unsaved (Romans 8:7-8) then of course evil doers aren't in the light. But if they get saved then they are. You've seen people with a sinful past get radically saved and then they began doing good works. Total change of personality.

And this change is a direct result of GOD intervening in the sinner's life. It is not possible to simply "get saved" while in such a fallen state, unless God directly intervenes. This is spelled out quite clearly in John 6:44, which I already provided.

John 6:44
Ok, "draws them". If God doesn't speak to them through the word or people or through His spirit then of course they can't get saved. You can't serve what you do not know.

And you're ignoring the fact that the "drawing" mentioned here is an effectual drawing. Both the context, and the Greek word used in this scripture imply so.

then the next verses. (i don't know how to change color)
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me
Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

You're proving my point. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father will be saved. EVERYONE. Not just the ones who "choose to accept" God's drawing.

This just restates what i said and it is a good verse against predestination.

.......

See, it says that you have to have heard of God and learned of Him should go to him. Notice also that it says EVERY man (of course man means all genders and children too) and not just the elect.

No, it doesn't. It says, "Every man WHO HAS HEARD AND LEARNED FROM THE FATHER." Unless you're prepared to accept Universalism, then this does NOT include every single human being who's ever lived.

Deuteronomy 30:6
again with the "will", that is future tense and does not help the arguement of predestination.

It was future tense at the time the prophecy was made. If God has done this in you, then the prophecy has obviously already been fulfilled in your life.

If you give your life to God, He will change you and make you new.

Wrong. You have it backwards. If God changes us and makes us new, THEN we will give our lives to Him. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE for us to give our life to Him, until He does so, or did you not read Romans 8:7?

Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
(this verse starts the chapter by saying that when thy turn to God He will do these things)

So, basically, what you're saying is that if the people spoken of will return to God, then God will cause them to return to Him? How does that make any sense at all? And furthermore, you must prove that they even have the ability to turn to God of their own volition, in light of Romans 8:7.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
God was saying that He was doing this for His own name because the children of Isreal defiled it, in other words, here their evil deeds actually drew God's attention and made Him move. And, this is still in future tense so predestined doesn't work here.

....and you completely missed my point. First of all, my point was that when God regenerates us, He does it EFFECTUALLY, and according to HIS OWN WILL. He does not rely on our permission to change our hearts. Secondly, how the crap does speaking in future tense negate the possibility of predestination?

John 5:21
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
God chooses the ones who do the above. This is how Jesus decides who to give life to. If they, (the person) hears the word and believes in God the are saved. It is their actions.

And again, you are COMPLETELY IGNORING the fact that one CANNOT do any of the above, unless God directly intervenes. Read John 6:44 and Romans 8:7 again. Read them many times. Let them sink in. You're apparently not grasping the concept. Sinful man CANNOT come to God without His direct intervention.

Ephesians 1:4-6
Here is the biggest problem. It is automaticly assumed that He is chosing individuals. Us could also mean those who Believe in Him. Which would be a very general term. It was predestined that Jesus would come and die for our sins. No one disputes that. In the same way everyone who believes in Him was too. But that isn't the individual or the elect.

Now you're just making justifications. This interpretation of Ephesians 1 does not make any sense at all. How can "He predestined us to adoption as Sons through Jesus Christ" POSSIBLY translate into "God chose to give life to those who freely believe in Him"?

Then here is the big proof for my statement.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
AFTER you believed you were sealed into that promise. I hadn't even seen this verse before you put the scripture there. How could you specifically be predestined if you aren't even a member of them until you believe. This is pivitol.

Being "sealed in the promise" is completely seperate from the act of election. We believe because God changes our hearts and CAUSES us to believe. If He didn't do so, and left us to ourselves, NONE of us would believe, because we are INCAPABLE OF DOING ANY GOOD BEFORE BEING REGENERATED.

John 15:16
Again, you is the group of believers and not the individual. Once you believe you are then placed in that group.

And this is another horrible justification. This interpretation makes no sense at all. The scripture clearly states that WE DID NOT CHOOSE GOD, but that HE CHOSE US. Not that He chose us BECAUSE we chose Him first.

John 6:37
No, it doesn't say that He will not allow them to fall away. It says that He won't cast them away. If the person chooses to renounce his faith then he himself is casting himself away and not God who loves him.

........

Did you even read my commentary on this verse? That was not to prove Once Saved Always Saved, that was to prove that all whom God have chosen will come to Christ. Please read my posts in their entirety before replying.

Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
(note that Hebrews 6:6 states that it is possible for people to fall away. But the whole thing says that if you "fall away" after being enlightened then it is impossible to go back to salvation)

No, it does not say that it is possible for them to fall away. All it says is that IF they shall fall away, they are unable to renew themselves again to repentence. You're adding words to the scripture that simply aren't there. And furthermore, if you would have actually read my posts, you'd know that Perseverence of the Saints does NOT mean that one "cannot" lose their salvation, but that one WILL not lose their salvation. I'll post my explanation(s) again, for your convenience:

Perseverence of the Saints
I believe that God will not allow any of His chosen sheep to fall away and be lost, but that He will sustain them, causing them to persevere in their faith until the day they are glorified in Heaven.

...

And finally, this leaves us with one last point. While it is technically possible to revoke your faith and thus, lose your salvation, God will cause His chosen ones to persevere in their faith, never allowing them to "fall away."

Jeremiah 32:39-40
I already explained this as being the Christians and not specific people that God has picked out. In order to become one you must believe.

...and you COMPLETELY missed my point again. That scripture was a prooftext for Perseverence of the Saints, NOT Unconditional Election. Are you reading my posts at all?

John 6:38-39
Jesus came to do the will of the Father. Jesus has been given the believers. We are saved in Christ because he rose again.

See above. This scripture was to prove POTS, that Christ will not lose ANY that the Father has given Him.

John 10:27-29
The sheep being all of us Christians.

See above, again. My point is that "all of us true Christians" will never fall away, because God will not allow us to.

Ephesians 1:13-14
This really helps my arguement. It is the verse i explained earlier before i got to this verse. It says after you hear the message of truth and believe then you are saved. AFTER

Once again, see above. This scripture was a prooftext of POTS. Once you believe, you are "sealed" with the Spirit of promise; that promise being that you will NEVER perish. And, once again, our requirement to believe is irrelevent, because God is the one who CAUSES us to believe. If He didn't, we would not be able to believe in the first place.

Ephesians 4:30
complies with the above

And again, you missed my point.

Philippians 1:6
ok. God will continue the good work on his children until the day of Christ.

Exactly. Meaning that He will not allow them to fall away.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

You're proving my point. Evil people can only do evil things continually.

No, I'm saying that you change as you grow. Sure, if you're evil at the time then you aren't going to be doing good. But can a Good person do evil? Yes he/she can as we all know. So that can't work as an arguement if it doesn't apply to both sides of the spectrum.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

"Making our hearts evil" is not necessary. Our hearts are evil by default, until we are regenerated.

No, our actions are evil until we are saved. Simply because until we are saved we cannot do good because we are out of the will or saving grace. But i have seen unsaved people having good hearts most of my missions trips.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

I'm aware of this. It's called regeneration. What you don't seem to be grasping is the fact that ONLY God can change them. We cannot change ourselves. We are inherently evil until we are made alive in Christ. This is the doctrine of Total Depravity.

The only reason why we are "evil" is because we are not saved yet. God does command us to believe in Him. If we aren't believing in Him then we are disobeying Him by default. However, we can still have a good heart and our other actions can be Christlike. But without salvation it is for nill.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

This does not mean that he was inherently good, or even "neutral" to begin with.

It does mean that he was other than evil in this situation. If God had to harden his heart then it implies that pharoh may have made another choice and could have let his people go earlier.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

That sentence was less than coherent...can you clarify what you meant?

In other words, if you fill yourself with evil then you will release evil. If you hang around gangs and such then you begin to portray their actions. The opposite is also true. But that doesn't mean you were always like that.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

Answer your question?

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. (this is the verse right before. It is talking about the antichrists. People who were never even trying to be saved. You must have seen people who earnestly sought Jesus but then something happened in their life that they blamed God for and turned away.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

What's your point? Regeneration still occured in the Old Testament. It HAD to have occured, unless you're prepared to just disreguard all the scripture I've provided on Total Depravity.

what is the total depravity verse? didn't seem to catch it. It seems like in the old testament you were saved or condemed by works alone.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

And this change is a direct result of GOD intervening in the sinner's life. It is not possible to simply "get saved" while in such a fallen state, unless God directly intervenes. This is spelled out quite clearly in John 6:44, which I already provided.

Us making the choice to accept Jesus into our heart is not intervention. It is us accepting Jesus. The only type of intervention you might be thinking about would be one of us witnessing to them or giving them a Bible or leading them through the sinner's prayer. But it is still their choice.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

And you're ignoring the fact that the "drawing" mentioned here is an effectual drawing. Both the context, and the Greek word used in this scripture imply so.

The requirement to be "drawn" is to confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. So of course the individual plays a role here.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

You're proving my point. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father will be saved. EVERYONE. Not just the ones who "choose to accept" God's drawing.

Now you're proving my point. It doesn't mention the elect or only the ones who God has decided will accept Him. It says everyone. That gives everyone an equal chance for salvation.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

No, it doesn't. It says, "Every man WHO HAS HEARD AND LEARNED FROM THE FATHER." Unless you're prepared to accept Universalism, then this does NOT include every single human being who's ever lived.

Why not every human being? I have no idea what Universalism is but I know that God is no respector of persons. He doesn't give one a leg up and trip the other. You basically only answered this question by saying no without any other explanation other than no.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

It was future tense at the time the prophecy was made. If God has done this in you, then the prophecy has obviously already been fulfilled in your life.

But then it is still yet to happen for every other future christian.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

Wrong. You have it backwards. If God changes us and makes us new, THEN we will give our lives to Him. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE for us to give our life to Him, until He does so, or did you not read Romans 8:7?

why not? I've got some good friends who wanted to get saved but were heavily in a life of sin. I witnessed to them and they got saved. Then, they were changed.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

So, basically, what you're saying is that if the people spoken of will return to God, then God will cause them to return to Him? How does that make any sense at all? And furthermore, you must prove that they even have the ability to turn to God of their own volition, in light of Romans 8:7.

I'm saying that they will recieve Christ and then God will change them. Romans 8:7-8 talks about if you aren't saved then you can't please God. This is obvious since God commanded us to do so. If you are disobeying God then you are out of His will.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

....and you completely missed my point. First of all, my point was that when God regenerates us, He does it EFFECTUALLY, and according to HIS OWN WILL. He does not rely on our permission to change our hearts. Secondly, how the crap does speaking in future tense negate the possibility of predestination?

If you are already chosen to be saved then future tense would be kind of redundant since God wouldn't lose or fail to get that which He has chosen. That would use the conncept of predestination of the inividual against itself. God restoring Israel for the sake of His own name doesn't mean he chooses the people who will get saved. God has been continuously relenting from utterly destroying Israel because of His name. If He just let them get torn up then the foreign nations would think their God to be weak or just hating of them.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

And again, you are COMPLETELY IGNORING the fact that one CANNOT do any of the above, unless God directly intervenes. Read John 6:44 and Romans 8:7 again. Read them many times. Let them sink in. You're apparently not grasping the concept. Sinful man CANNOT come to God without His direct intervention.

See previous answers on this topic

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

Now you're just making justifications. This interpretation of Ephesians 1 does not make any sense at all. How can "He predestined us to adoption as Sons through Jesus Christ" POSSIBLY translate into "God chose to give life to those who freely believe in Him"?

well, if you read the next verses and quit taking it out of context it would. more specifically,
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

Being "sealed in the promise" is completely seperate from the act of election. We believe because God changes our hearts and CAUSES us to believe. If He didn't do so, and left us to ourselves, NONE of us would believe, because we are INCAPABLE OF DOING ANY GOOD BEFORE BEING REGENERATED.

I already answered this earlier. Sealed in His promise means that you are saved. If you weren't in His promise before hand then you specifically were not "prechose" but rather included into the group after you were saved. God never predestined any individual but rather He knew that the group of people who believed and confessed Jesus as Lord would come. He would save whoever entered that group.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

And this is another horrible justification. This interpretation makes no sense at all. The scripture clearly states that WE DID NOT CHOOSE GOD, but that HE CHOSE US. Not that He chose us BECAUSE we chose Him first.

Jhn 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. This is a verse prior to that verse. It is a requirement to become His "friend". It is an action to take. It is possible that He was talking to his disciples. He did go out and actively seek them, telling them to follow him. They then had a choice. Just as we have a choice after we hear the word. To follow or not to follow.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

Did you even read my commentary on this verse? That was not to prove Once Saved Always Saved, that was to prove that all whom God have chosen will come to Christ. Please read my posts in their entirety before replying.

Ok then, the people who God has chosen are the ones who will believe. Think about that. It isn't specific people who believe that God chooses but rather the group of people who will. Why is that important? Because it means that everyone at least has a chance to enter that group. It makes witnessing more purposeful. But i am using this verse to counter the once saved thing as well.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

No, it does not say that it is possible for them to fall away. All it says is that IF they shall fall away, they are unable to renew themselves again to repentence. You're adding words to the scripture that simply aren't there. And furthermore, if you would have actually read my posts, you'd know that Perseverence of the Saints does NOT mean that one "cannot" lose their salvation, but that one WILL not lose their salvation. I'll post my explanation(s) again, for your convenience:

It does not say that it was impossible for people to fall away. It says that God won't cast them out. Read the verse. They can leave as they please but God won't make them go.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

And finally, this leaves us with one last point. While it is technically possible to revoke your faith and thus, lose your salvation, God will cause His chosen ones to persevere in their faith, never allowing them to "fall away.".

No, it isn't by God's endurance being forced upon us that we remain Christians.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Obviously there are others who will not endure. They will not be saved because they fell away.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

...and you COMPLETELY missed my point again. That scripture was a prooftext for Perseverence of the Saints, NOT Unconditional Election. Are you reading my posts at all?

Ok, i was just using it to counter another of your statements. If you'll notice the part of the verse where it says, "I will not turn away from them". That is that God will not turn away from them. Can't you lose the fear of God in your life? No verse says that you can't. Say someone close to you dies terribly and you lose your fear of God out of anger and turn from Him.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

See above. This scripture was to prove POTS, that Christ will not lose ANY that the Father has given Him.

This was refering to the 12. Remember,
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
(while i was with them in the world. see? Is Jesus still in the world? no.)

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

See above, again. My point is that "all of us true Christians" will never fall away, because God will not allow us to.

The verse means that God won't scratch them out and no one else can scratch them out. But what if they freely leave? Then it is themselves who pull themselves away. One way or the other. If a fellow christian seems to be falling away i help them to return. I guess you guys assume they were never saved in the first place and then try to witness to them.

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

Once again, see above. This scripture was a prooftext of POTS. Once you believe, you are "sealed" with the Spirit of promise; that promise being that you will NEVER perish. And, once again, our requirement to believe is irrelevent, because God is the one who CAUSES us to believe. If He didn't, we would not be able to believe in the first place.

I've answered this before...

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

And again, you missed my point.

I addressed this specifically also

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

Exactly. Meaning that He will not allow them to fall away.

This verse is refering to the faithful. There is no reason to just assume otherwise.

Ok Buddy, your turn. Like i told you on AOL i don't want to offend. Either way, we are both saved and that is what matters. We are brothers in Christ.

[Lightknight]

Also, to throw my own scripture in here on the possibility of falling away. This is something Jesus said but i still don't know how to change the text color.

Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
(this is talking about the people already in Him. If they don't bear fruit they are taken away)

[Bryan]

this is just a suggestion for the flow of the debate.

I would suggest that you debate one point of calvinism at a time instead of debating all of them. Start with Total Depravity since that forms the basis for Calvinism and all other points stand or fall according to the truth of Total Depravity.

[Lightknight]

Originally Posted by Bryan

this is just a suggestion for the flow of the debate.

I would suggest that you debate one point of calvinism at a time instead of debating all of them. Start with Total Depravity since that forms the basis for Calvinism and all other points stand or fall according to the truth of Total Depravity.

This is just between us and we chose to do it this way. Thankyou though.
I'm not trying to be offensive at all so i appologies if this sounds like it