[zoe r]

I just wanted to hear everyone's opinion on what they think about this...."losing" salvation...or "once saved always saved"..

[cowboy]

I know this is gonna be a good one. Um, I know a lot of people believe once saved always saved, but what if you're saved and you commit the unforgivable sin? I don't really know.

if you are truly saved how could you commit the unforgivable sin?

[Luke]

Originally posted by zoe renwick
I just wanted to hear everyone's opinion on what they think about this...."losing" salvation...or "once saved always saved"..

Didn't we just finish an entire thread on this...?

The Bible teaches a doctrine of eternal security by which those who are God's are preserved by God until they have finished the race of life. This is a consistent message through multiple New Testament books.

Christ certainly taught the doctrine that salvation was irrevocable.

"and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. ²⁹My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." (John 10:28-29, NASB)

Here we see quite clearly that no outside thing can abrogate our salvation. Jesus also speaks of His preservation of the disciples in particular and all believers in general during His prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane.

"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12, NASB)

Again we see Jesus' preservation evident in salvation. This job is passed to the Holy Spirit after Jesus' ascension (John 16:13). The son of perdition (Judas), some argue, was "lost", but in reality he was a vessel prepared for destruction (Romans 9:22), such as Pharaoh, raised up for God's purposes, but destined for ultimate downfall.

One more verse should also be considered.
"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6)

This verse does not say that the work of God will be sometimes completed. He who began a good work in you will complete it. If a believer was lost, this would certainly be an empty promise.

Some argue that, despite all this, we can choose to be "unsaved" again if we want to, but this is not consistent with the message of Scripture. In actuality, one that is truly saved will be changed by God and will not want to return to the old life. Those who fall away, then, were not actually Christians to start with. This notion is supported by John in the first of his epistles:

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us. ²⁰But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. ²¹I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. ²²Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. ²³Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. ²⁴As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. ²⁵And this is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life." (1 John 2:19-25, NASB)

1 John 2:19 carries a strong implication that those who fall away were not actually redeemed in the first place. This is strengthened by verse 24, which says that if you're truly saved, you will abide in the Son and Father (see John 15).

Based on this, I can state with confidence that no true believer can ever be lost.

[maadio]

what unforgivable sin? Last time I checked, God's grace had no boundaries, and no sin was too great for Him to take it away...

Anyway guys... how could God go back on his promises. Doesn't it say that once you've accepted Him, he will NEVER blot out your name from the book of life??? Come on, folks... Can we stop beating this horse and let it rest in peace?

[Luke]

Originally posted by plaid_child
what unforgivable sin? Last time I checked, God's grace had no boundaries, and no sin was too great for Him to take it away...

Scripture does teach of an unforgiveable sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31), but this sin cannot be committed by a beliver, for its definition is the ultimate rejection of the Gospel.

[cowboy]

I'm just saying, what if you become saved at some point in your life, and then you completely reject and turn away from God, and say, become a Satan worshipper?

[SCCdcTFreak]

Then most likely ( I only say that because if its a true believer, then they're just going through like, a time of doubt and rebellion and will come back later if they are true) they weren't a true believer to begin with. It's kind of hard to fall from Grace (which the Bible teaches cannot happen as Luke has shown us) when you're not standing at the top to begin with.

In Him,
† <>< S†ephen

[zoe r]

I'm sorry....I didn't know you guys already had threads about this.
Well, I dont believe that you can just pray a sinner's prayer and be "saved" and Jesus comes into your heart and you'll go to heaven no matter what. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that.
I do believe that Jesus wiped out all our sins eternally, which means EVERYONE is "saved" from Hell. If sin is no longer a factor of separating us from God..then what is? I think the key is repentance..turning AWAY from our sin..because we don't have to sin anymore, we can be perfect. Perfection literally means "completion"..we are complete, blameles before God. Salvation is forever taking place, it never ends...either we are moving forward or sliding backward..no can lose the fact that Jesus saved them..that's already done. To accept the fact that we are free, and believe and live out the plan God has for us..I think that determines whether or not we'll recieve Jesus' crown.

[Luke]

Originally posted by zoe renwick
Well, I dont believe that you can just pray a sinner's prayer and be "saved" and Jesus comes into your heart and you'll go to heaven no matter what. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that.

Correct

I do believe that Jesus wiped out all our sins eternally, which means EVERYONE is "saved" from Hell. If sin is no longer a factor of separating us from God..then what is? I think the key is repentance..turning AWAY from our sin..because we don't have to sin anymore, we can be perfect. Perfection literally means "completion"..we are complete, blameles before God. Salvation is forever taking place, it never ends...either we are moving forward or sliding backward..no can lose the fact that Jesus saved them..that's already done. To accept the fact that we are free, and believe and live out the plan God has for us..I think that determines whether or not we'll recieve Jesus' crown.

Some of that was really hard to figure out so if I rebut something that you hadn't intended to say, sorry.

First of all, Christ's atonement wasn't for everyone, but only for those chosen of God. That's why Scripture continually says Christ died for the sins of many. (Romans 5:15, Hebrews 9:28). Christ's death was for all in some sense, as not killing the reprobate after his first breath is mercy on God's part, and only possible through the Cross, which is why 1 Timothy 4:10 says that Christ died for all men but especially for those who believe.

So, the answer to your question about what is the factor in separating unbelievers from God? Sin. Thus says Romans 3-5.

Besides, the Bible clearly teaches hell as a reality, and since you are teaching universalism, every verse that talks about hell flies in the face of what you're saying.

[trhoke]

Cowboy said:
I'm just saying, what if you become saved at some point in your life, and then you completely reject and turn away from God, and say, become a Satan worshipper?

Well, if someone is "saved" than turns around and starts worshipping the devil I would question whether they were truly saved. I realize we don't know their heart, but once again our faith (or lack of it) is made manifest in our works.

In Christ,
Tim

[cq dx]

"I do believe that Jesus wiped out all our sins eternally,
which means EVERYONE is "saved" from Hell. If sin is no longer
a factor of separating us from God..then what is? I think the key
is repentance..turning AWAY from our sin..because we don't
have to sin anymore, we can be perfect. Perfection literally means
"completion"..we are complete, blameles before God."

Lessee if i follow you . . . .
Messiah's atonement wipes out all sins of all men universally,
automatically. So, that implies the penalty therof. Otherwise
His death had no meaning. Am i following you so far?

Now, having been redeemed from the penalty of death, we
are placed back under the yoke of this penalty if we do not
turn away from the sin Messiah "wiped out" . . . . ?
Am i following you ?

So, we are turning away from sin we "do not have anymore"?

And now, because of our performance, we can be made
complete, and because a transliteration of complete is
'perfection', we are made perfect ?

So, to boil it all down to operatives, you are saying that
we are saved through our performance?

Therefore, we save ourselves?

[maadio]

yeah... that philosophy is lookin' kinda shady to me...

[zoe r]

o my goodness no...I'm terrible at explaining things..as you can probly tell...
here's what I believe, in as plain and unconfusing terms as I can manage..hehe.

A.) Jesus came and died and rose again. This is what wiped out the eternal penalty of our sin.
Without faith in God and Jesus and what He did for us, there is no way we are getting to heaven.
B.) Because we no longer have any reason to be sinning, we should stop. Turn the other way, and follow God for the rest of our lives.
C.) Both faith and works are equally important. It is very necessary to live what we believe, be a living sacrafice and testimony to Jesus our Savior and redeemer.
D.) About the perfection=completion..I'm saying, we CAN be perfect and holy, because we have Jesus, the filler of our void. This means we're not held down by the excuse "o we're only human, we have to sin." Because we don't.
E.) We are all "saved"..what I mean is that Jesus died for everyone..(or rather, we are all eligible for salvation)..but not everyone chooses to acknowledge that. Our sin isn't gone essentially until we confess with our mouths and believe with our hearts..but it's also confusing because Jesus died for the chosen..
F.) we are not "performing" by doing "good works". We are simply fulfilling the will of the Father..as His children the least we can do is give our whole selves up for him. As Paul said somewhere, even if we were to become as bondslaves and do everything the Father asked of us..that is only our obligation.

k that's all..for now.. I hope that explained it a little bit better..just to clarify something..if we saved ourselves i wouldnt love Jesus with all my heart..because then his death on the cross would have been worthless....he's the one who gave up himself for us, and became our Savior and Redeemer, so that we could join Him in heaven someday. --Zoe

[Luke]

Originally posted by zoe renwick
o my goodness no...I'm terrible at explaining things..as you can probly tell...
here's what I believe, in as plain and unconfusing terms as I can manage..hehe.

Ya...for a sec I thought you were unorthodox and was going to go on a huge rant against universalism.

C.) Both faith and works are equally important. It is very necessary to live what we believe, be a living sacrafice and testimony to Jesus our Savior and redeemer.

Not quite. Faith we know to be a gift from God (Ephesians 2:9) without which any good works cannot be possible (Romans 8:7-8). What you actually need for salvation is faith, which, by the way, you cannot produce in yourself--it can only be granted to you by God. That faith will manifest itself in works, which is why James says that faith without works is dead.

Instead saying that they are equally important, a better way of saying it would be that they go hand-in-hand, just because the former statement implies that salvation is a result of faith plus works, which is the heresy that Martin Luther was fighting in the Reformation.

D.) About the perfection=completion..I'm saying, we CAN be perfect and holy, because we have Jesus, the filler of our void. This means we're not held down by the excuse "o we're only human, we have to sin." Because we don't.

Can as in "technically it is possible" or can as is "it can actually happen"? This seems like a distinction without a difference, so let me explain. An unsaved person is incapable of doing anything righteous. Is he technically able to do so. Yes, he has the mental and emotional faculties to accomplish a righteous deed. But he can't do anything righteous (it can't acutally happen) because he's dead in sin (Ephesians 2)--his will is enslaved to the sinful nature.

If you are making can to mean "is technically possible", I agree with you. If you are making can to mean "it can actually happen", I would defer from your thinking.

E.) We are all "saved"..what I mean is that Jesus died for everyone..(or rather, we are all eligible for salvation)..but not everyone chooses to acknowledge that. Our sin isn't gone essentially until we confess with our mouths and believe with our hearts..but it's also confusing because Jesus died for the chosen..

Christ died for everyone in the sense that what mercy God does show the reprobate is made possible by the cross, but in terms of eternal salvation, Christ died only for the elect--and Christ actually got all those for whom He died.

I'm so glad you're not a universalist, though, because you had me scared there. I thought I was going to have to debate a universalist on one thread and at the same time defend the Trinity on another, that's more than a mouthful...