EleventhHour's musings...

EleventhHour · 02-03-2004, 11:43 PM

Here's a bit of the debate between mustbenothing and ICTHUS, over why Protestants don't recognize the Roman Catholic church, or why there was a split:

Quote:

ICTHUS said:...And, even if one claims that the divisions aren't as serious as they appear, and that there are only 3 or 4 main groups within Protestantism, as you claim, none of them can claim with any authority that they are the True Church.

mbn: "None of them should want to make that claim. The marks of the true Church are not defined geographically, politically, or even ecclesiastically -- it comes down to apostolicity, the Word and Sacrament with proper discipline, individuals who have been united to Christ."

mbn: "Previously, I said:
and her false Sacrament of penance makes priests our mediators instead of Christ alone), "

Quote:

ICTHUS said:
I don't suppose John 20:19-21 means anything to you?

mbn: "Of course it does. Nowhere in it, however, can we find the doctrine that each priest shall be man's mediator, as if the great High Priest (Christ) is insufficient of Himself."

Quote:

ICTHUS said:
The Church has understood these as Christ giving his apostles the same authority He had to forgive and retain sins, since the beginning.

mbn: "The Roman Catholic Church, that is. Not all of the Church."

Quote:

ICTHUS said:
Interestingly enough, when viewed in light of Matthew 16:18-19, the terms "binding" and "loosing" were ancient Jewish rabbinical terms that signified the ability to cut someone off, or to recieve someone back into, the People of God, the Covenant family of God, bought and paid for by the blood of Christ.

mbn: "Yes, of course, what the Apostles said shall have been done in Heaven, because they were entrusted with the Gospel. Because they were specially proclaiming the Gospel, their words proclaimed what had already been wrought. The Gospel itself binds and looses us, and the Apostles were entrusted with the Gospel. They did not control it, but they were its witnesses. Thus, as they witnessed to it, they could proclaim its truths to all people -- what they said, it did."

Quote:

ICTHUS said:
Also, the priest is not our mediator, Christ is; however, His mediatorship is effected by the exercising of the Keys entrusted to him in his ordination: In the prayer of absolution, it is Christ, not a mere man, who absolves: the priest merely "steps aside" as it were, and allows Christ to work through him.

mbn: "Which means that we have the mediation of the priest at all because..?"

[from a recent thread in Apologetics, not really a debate just between two people]

_____________
Eh, what was I going to say. Trying to finish a long overdue PM to Gene. I hope everything is going well in a particular matter he mentioned in the last PM. I kind of deserted by not returning the PM for several weeks. My usual writer's block/communication problem. Well, I know he's forgiving, I just am not forgiving myself yet, I think.

Chrysostom · 02-04-2004, 12:36 PM

Hello, Liz. I've now read your journal. Sounds interesting.

Haha, why did you post the debate in your blog?

By the way, I misread the last thing that Ryan said, so my response is totally stupid

EleventhHour · 02-04-2004, 02:28 PM

Thanks, John. I've not been reading many blog threads here yet, except Evenstar's. But I'll probably get around to it pretty soon, so I'll be headed your way.

That part of the discussion is here because it's interesting. The whole thing is, but I just felt like putting a slice of my day here. I was raised in the Roman Catholic church, went to RC schools for 13 1/2 years. My father was RC, my mother Protestant before marriage, and this background led to a lot of questions about Christianity and it's relationship to RC. Led to a lot of answers, too. [I just reread that last bit and see your point.

So now it's noted]

Thanks for your message back in the last few days when rep was still around. It was nice to be welcomed.

Chrysostom · 02-04-2004, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EleventhHour

Thanks, John. I've not been reading many blog threads here yet, except Evenstar's. But I'll probably get around to it pretty soon, so I'll be headed your way.

Haha, don't feel under any compulsion to read my blog

Quote:

Originally Posted by EleventhHour

That part of the discussion is here because it's interesting.

Oh, okay

Quote:

Originally Posted by EleventhHour

The whole thing is, but I just felt like putting a slice of my day here. I was raised in the Roman Catholic church, went to RC schools for 13 1/2 years. My father was RC, my mother Protestant before marriage, and this background led to a lot of questions about Christianity and it's relationship to RC. Led to a lot of answers, too. [I just reread that last bit and see your point.

So now it's noted]

Great! Where are you going to church now? I read about the problems going on in your church with the elders

Quote:

Originally Posted by EleventhHour

Thanks for your message back in the last few days when rep was still around. It was nice to be welcomed.

Haha, you are welcome...d

EleventhHour · 02-04-2004, 03:19 PM

I was being cautious by saying 'elder', rather than priest. Last time I seriously went to church, my wallet was stolen by a priest's for hire boyfriend (a hooker came up to a youth dance to service him. The fellow accidentally left his sweatshirt at the dance, the priest insisted I take it and keep it. Stupid me. The kid saw me wear it and stole my wallet. I didn't understand who the fellow was or that it was his clothing--it took me years to connect the wallet-stealing with the scary looking older boy at the dance). Some of the priests are just rather lukewarm and follow the Church party line and are not after God's heart, some are after whatever they can get. There are some genuine Christians though.

I've been scared to go to any church after some of my experiences. Also I was very unconvinced for many years that Jesus is Lord, though deep down I believed it, nothing fit together. Until it just started falling together. So I'm churchless but for strenghthening some of my better relationships, and edging away from insincere ones, getting into some prayer and discussion on the internet, and listening to some very good Christian Radio.

The internet has really helped me a great deal in standing on my feet spiritually. I've felt parts of my mind and heart growing that really had been still for so long. I'm still very slow, though!

My apologies to Roman Catholics reading any of this and not liking it, but the truth is the truth, and I'm human and have been both angry and hurting about a lot of experiences I've had with the RC church.

Chrysostom · 02-04-2004, 04:17 PM

I think it's a really good idea to start going to a church. I can try to find one for you, if you like.

However, it sounds like you've gone through some bad times, but good things have come in spite of them. Congrats!

John

EleventhHour · 02-05-2004, 11:08 PM

Yeah, I think I'm coming out of some of the haze. I know I should find a church, but I'm still very shaky after many bad experiences, sorry to say. I think one of my problems in the past is that I didn't understand the hierarchy of importance. I tended to put Church attendance before personal spirituality and relationship with Jesus. I didn't have a clue, I just did the best I could.

I thought somehow God put the knowledge of what I was to do in my heart, and that regular church attendance and taking the sacraments would magically bring this about. Really, I was pretty lost. I put other people before God sometimes, thinking that's what God wanted me to do; this was part of my upbringing. I also just didn't know to have respect for myself as a child of God, still putting other people's needs before my own, trying to fulfill their needs, but not even really understanding my own needs or anyone else's. Well, anyway, spiritual recovery just chased me down, and I'm getting clearer on things.

Yes, you may recommend a church if you will. You'll forgive me if it takes a long time to move forward. Slow but sure tends to be my motto. I had thought for so long that somehow I would reconcile with the RC church, but I really don't think that's what I want anymore. I don't necessarily want to offend my family, none of whom seem to have quite the same problems with the Church as I do. I do have 2 siblings out of 4 who just don't seem to concern themselves with these matters, and avoid Christianity and churchgoing except for weddings & baptisms, etc. But I suppose they'd all be offended if I went to a church other than Catholic. I know how I felt at one time, the RC church was good enough, and the right church. Now I have big doubts, growing.

Chrysostom · 02-05-2004, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EleventhHour

Yeah, I think I'm coming out of some of the haze. I know I should find a church, but I'm still very shaky after many bad experiences, sorry to say. I think one of my problems in the past is that I didn't understand the hierarchy of importance. I tended to put Church attendance before personal spirituality and relationship with Jesus. I didn't have a clue, I just did the best I could.

Get JI Packer's Knowing God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EleventhHour

I thought somehow God put the knowledge of what I was to do in my heart, and that regular church attendance and taking the sacraments would magically bring this about. Really, I was pretty lost. I put other people before God sometimes, thinking that's what God wanted me to do; this was part of my upbringing. I also just didn't know to have respect for myself as a child of God, still putting other people's needs before my own, trying to fulfill their needs, but not even really understanding my own needs or anyone else's. Well, anyway, spiritual recovery just chased me down, and I'm getting clearer on things.

Good. Tell me any other way in which I can pray for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EleventhHour

Yes, you may recommend a church if you will. You'll forgive me if it takes a long time to move forward. Slow but sure tends to be my motto. I had thought for so long that somehow I would reconcile with the RC church, but I really don't think that's what I want anymore. I don't necessarily want to offend my family, none of whom seem to have quite the same problems with the Church as I do. I do have 2 siblings out of 4 who just don't seem to concern themselves with these matters, and avoid Christianity and churchgoing except for weddings & baptisms, etc. But I suppose they'd all be offended if I went to a church other than Catholic. I know how I felt at one time, the RC church was good enough, and the right church. Now I have big doubts, growing.

I don't know where you're living. If you don't want to leave it out for everyone to see, PM me with the town

EleventhHour · 02-06-2004, 12:19 AM

a. JI Packer's Knowing God, okay. :d

b. So many things to pray about!

c. Cincinnati, Ohio. Sorry about that. West side of town, and I have no car, so will have to walk or ride bus.

Chrysostom · 02-06-2004, 12:29 AM

http://www.faithpca.org/

I think it's on the east side, though. I don't know what you're trying to find. This church is pretty small, I think. I also found a church that's more of an "evangelical" kind of place. It's much bigger, and seems like more of a "community church." I don't know what you're trying to find, though, again.

EleventhHour · 02-06-2004, 01:10 AM

Thanks. I'm not sure what I'm looking for either. I went to a friend's church many years ago for a short time, but it was so strange to me, and at the time I was still RC, not interested in any other church.

I have thought about going back there. It was Pentecostal. I really don't know whether I would feel very comfortable there or not. I tend not to like to socialize a lot, which is not so appealing to other people. I really like the socializing I do over the internet and at Alanon meetings, both of which are new to me in the last few years. It's more socializing than I've done most of my life. So you might see why I'd have difficulty with just jumping in to a new church. Alanon and the internet are very safe.

EleventhHour · 02-06-2004, 02:50 PM

A link or two that interest me, one I've skimmed the other I've yet to look at:

http://lores.lair.moondance.org/scandals.htm

oop, need to find the other again.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...nID=1130383750

EleventhHour · 02-12-2004, 10:53 PM

Hm, that one site I can't upload the sermon because it says my email address is invalid. It's as valid as any, darnit.

The top link in my last post has something interesting to say about St. Augustine, that he believed women had no souls, that their bodies just were to be used by men. I wonder if that's true, or a misinterpretation. If it is, I'm disgusted. I read Confessions when I was about 19, and I was so impressed.

This is from 5 reasons not to see [url=Mel Gibson's The Passion Speaking of the concept that the Crucifixion and the mass is the same thing, the Protestant Westminster Confession declares:

"In this sacrament, Christ is not offered up to his Father; nor any real sacrifice made at all, for remission of sins of the quick or dead; but only a commemoration of that one offering up of himself, by himself, upon the cross, once for all: and a spiritual oblation of all possible praise unto God, for the same: so that the popish sacrifice of the mass (as they call it) is most abominably injurious to Christ's one, only sacrifice, the alone propitiation for all the sins of his elect."

EleventhHour · 02-20-2004, 10:45 PM

Well, I really haven't been doing anything terribly interesting in real life. J & F came down from Canton and we went to Findlay Market and I picked up a few things. We then went to see Matt's father-in-law Tom, who has been in treatment for cancer, and is recovering. He probably has some good years left in him yet, so I hope he recovers.

I am not really catching up with the stuff I should be. I just feel so disorganized. Like I'm okay one day, but then let everything slide. I wish I wouldn't do that. Dr. C. was talking about sabotage -- sometimes people sabotage their own efforts because it seems like they will be too difficult to complete. I've also read about people who do that to a relationship, because they don't believe the relationship will really work out.

Chrysostom · 02-21-2004, 03:20 AM

Hello, Liz

Quote:

Originally Posted by EleventhHour

The top link in my last post has something interesting to say about St. Augustine, that he believed women had no souls, that their bodies just were to be used by men.

I don't know about that, specifically. However, everything I saw that I recognized was obviously distorted. The site just looks like a bunch of twisting

Quote:

Originally Posted by EleventhHour

Well, I really haven't been doing anything terribly interesting in real life.

Going to a church?