[CrispOne]

Originally Posted by Bryan

God works to cause his elect to persevere.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, "May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, and he will do it."

Philippians 1:6, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

l Corinthians 1:8-9, "Jesus Christ will sustain you to the end; guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."
[*]Therefore we should be zealous to make our calling and election sure.

2 Peter 1:10, "Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.[/list]

This is the only thing that is still bugging me. If God works to cause His elect to persevere, then why would there be all of those warnings against falling away? If we are elect, and God is continually working on our behalf to keep us from falling away, then why warn us about something that won't happen to us? And why warn the non-elect, since, effectively, they have nothing to fall away from?

The only argument that I can think of which seems to successfully reconcile these two points (that God works to keep the elect from falling, and that we must endure to the end) is that our perseverance is a joint effort, that we are co-laborers with God in this (I may be taking that verse out of context, though).

[psalm63adam]

Originally Posted by CrispOne

This is the only thing that is still bugging me. If God works to cause His elect to persevere, then why would there be all of those warnings against falling away? If we are elect, and God is continually working on our behalf to keep us from falling away, then why warn us about something that won't happen to us? And why warn the non-elect, since, effectively, they have nothing to fall away from?

Exactly! What is the point of the admonitions if there is no reason to be admonished?

[Wally]

the most often arguement i have heard about the warning passages (and the one i guess i agree with, being it the only one i know and it makes sense) is that they are there as a "scare tactic". now that needs to be explained....

its like a parent telling their kid not to play in the street or they will get hit by a car and killed. now, if the kid was to try to play in the street, the parent would most certainly stop them before they get hit by a car. however, to simply say "if you play in the street, you will get killed" will stop some kids from actually playing in the street.


or atleast something like that.

[Benny Hicks]

Originally Posted by CrispOne

This is the only thing that is still bugging me. If God works to cause His elect to persevere, then why would there be all of those warnings against falling away? If we are elect, and God is continually working on our behalf to keep us from falling away, then why warn us about something that won't happen to us? And why warn the non-elect, since, effectively, they have nothing to fall away from?

The writer assumes that his audience will receive his advice and take it to heart, so he procedes to warn his audience what would happen if they were to fall away. The fact that he informs that of what would happen if they were to fall away in no way necessitates that their falling away can actually occur, but it still serves to emphasize the seriousness of their decision to follow Christ.

Originally Posted by parkway

What is the point of the admonitions if there is no reason to be admonished?

The reason that they are admonished is to impart some knowledge to them that they would otherwise not have, and to therefore encourage them.

Ben

[CrispOne]

Originally Posted by gruveguy

The writer assumes that his audience will receive his advice and take it to heart, so he procedes to warn his audience what would happen if they were to fall away. The fact that he informs that of what would happen if they were to fall away in no way necessitates that their falling away can actually occur, but it still serves to emphasize the seriousness of their decision to follow Christ.




The reason that they are admonished is to impart some knowledge to them that they would otherwise not have, and to therefore encourage them.

Ben

I've heard this before, but it just doesn't sound like a very convincing argument. I don't think the admonishments are referring to hypothetical situations. They don't say "if you were to fall away." There's nothing in the passages to indicate that they're just talking about what would happen if it were possible to fall away. What would be the point in talking about that anyway? Wouldn't that be like me warning you not to try to drive your car across the Pacific because you'd run out of gas? Why warn us of the consequences of impossible actions?

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by CrispOne

This is the only thing that is still bugging me. If God works to cause His elect to persevere, then why would there be all of those warnings against falling away? If we are elect, and God is continually working on our behalf to keep us from falling away, then why warn us about something that won't happen to us? And why warn the non-elect, since, effectively, they have nothing to fall away from?

because these very warnings is one of the means God uses to preserve his elect.

The only argument that I can think of which seems to successfully reconcile these two points (that God works to keep the elect from falling, and that we must endure to the end) is that our perseverance is a joint effort, that we are co-laborers with God in this (I may be taking that verse out of context, though).

if this is true, then salvation is no longer monergistic. It has become synergistic. God is no longer the auther and perfecter of our faith alone, but now we are working together. This gives man something to boast about. Paul makes it very clear that the way in which God effects salvation allows us to only boast in the Lord.

[Bryan]

i don't like the way most Calvinists use the phrase "we can't lose our salvation". There is still the technical possibility that we can lose our salvation. But because God works to preserve his elect, the elect won't lose their salvation.

[Coop Cooper]

Bryan,

Read the into to death of death in the death of Christ regarding the triune nature of God in salvation.....there is not even a possibility that one who is saved can lose their salvation. Our salvation was purchased at the cross, and there are no refunds.

[psalm63adam]

Originally Posted by Coop Cooper

Bryan,

Read the into to death of death in the death of Christ regarding the triune nature of God in salvation.....there is not even a possibility that one who is saved can lose their salvation. Our salvation was purchased at the cross, and there are no refunds.

Again, if there is absolutely no way that there is even a possibility of one who is saved can lose their salvation, why is Paul and other epistle writers writing to churches filled with the "elect", warning them to stand firm, to continue to have faith, to make sure that the election is sure, etc.? What's the point?

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by parkway

Again, if there is absolutely no way that there is even a possibility of one who is saved can lose their salvation, why is Paul and other epistle writers writing to churches filled with the "elect", warning them to stand firm, to continue to have faith, to make sure that the election is sure, etc.? What's the point?

the point is to keep them standign firm, continuing to have faith, making sure that their election is sure.

[CrispOne]

Originally Posted by Bryan

the point is to keep them standign firm, continuing to have faith, making sure that their election is sure.

But aren't you saying that God does this for us?

So...Paul urges people to keep standing firm, to continue in their faith. They read his letter and then say to themselves "Okay, he's right. I'd better do that," and then they're motivated by Paul's admonishment to put some effort into maintianing their faith - their own effort, yes?

[Mike]

Originally Posted by CrispOne

But aren't you saying that God does this for us?

So...Paul urges people to keep standing firm, to continue in their faith. They read his letter and then say to themselves "Okay, he's right. I'd better do that," and then they're motivated by Paul's admonishment to put some effort into maintianing their faith - their own effort, yes?

I believe some misunderstandings are occurring here due to the focus of your thought. We have already established what will happen if a believer fatally falls away, he will not be saved. However, we have failed to view this scenario from the greater, and I would say more important, angle – Gods. What does it mean for God if one of his sheep falls away?

Certainly we are reminded several times throughout scripture to “endure to the end” and to “remain in Christ.” But we must examine the reason for these statements. Is it because we are barely holding onto our salvation and we could loose it at any moment (Indeed we would if it were up to us alone), or is it a call to press onto the goal that we know we’ve already won? Certainly, then, a Christian can “fall away” but does that relate to a type of falling in which a Christian can loose his salvation? Or should we say – God loosing a Christian.

Sproul, and others, distinguish this difference by elaborating on what “type of falling” a true Christian is capable of. Indeed, we all as believers constantly struggle with sin and often times have valleys in our lives. The difference, then, is in God’s preserving his sheep so that they might persevere.

While a Christian might “fall” in his life, God will never allow his children to fatally fall. For a sheep to be able to fatally stray away, ultimately leading to it’s own demise, it must be under the care of negligent, or at a minimum, a less than perfect Shepard. The problem now, does not lie with the sheep being imperfect, but in suggesting that the sheep’s master is somehow less than perfect, uncapable, or simply uncaring.

This Shepard/sheep analogy is used countless times throughout scripture in reference to Christ and his people. Why is it that we will always persevere to our final destination? Because we are good sheep somehow? Of course not! We will persevere because of the good Shepard who is there guiding us.

If Christ was not the good, nor perfect Shepard, then yes, I am sure we would all fatally fall away.

[Bryan]

Originally Posted by CrispOne

But aren't you saying that God does this for us?

So...Paul urges people to keep standing firm, to continue in their faith. They read his letter and then say to themselves "Okay, he's right. I'd better do that," and then they're motivated by Paul's admonishment to put some effort into maintianing their faith - their own effort, yes?

their own effort yes, but that effort only exists because of God's work in us.

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and act according to his good purpose (Philippians 2:12-13).

And He has said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.[color=blue Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me[/color] (2Co 12:9).

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus (Phi 1:6).

also, we will only become spiritually mature if God permits.
Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. And this we will do, if God permits (Heb 6:1-3).

everytime we do something that brings us closer to sanctification it is only done by the power of Christ as He works in us to sanctify us and mold us into his likeness.