The undoubtful existance of Jesus Christ and origins of Christianity

Joel · 09-19-2003, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Do you have any eye-witness accounts or interviews with eye-witnesses (other than the gospels). Do you have any emperical evidence? Do you have any accounts of the events attributed to Jesus actually occuring (someone who was at the fish and bread thing, but maybe doesn't say who did it). Do you have any Roman, Jewesh, (or anyone else) documentation regarding enay of the events involving Jesus? Did any fo the wise men write it down? Do you have *ANYTHING* other than the Gospel which *DIRECTLY*

1. Gop to google search--type in Philo of Alexandria (a contemporary of Jesus ) and peruse to yo9ur hearts content.

2. type in www.ariel.org email Arnold Fruchtenbaum directly, and he will give you many many writings outside of Chrisitians to validate Jesus.

3. You have to do this on your own. You have yet to support any of your assertions.

a. that the four gospel writers were self serving.

b. If Jesus was a mythical man, how could they persuade tens of thousands of Jewws to convert, when they would know the message they preached was about a "myth", thus making them idolaters.

c. You have yet to present even a scintillia of evidence from history that Jesus is made up.

d. You have yet to present evidence thqat the four gospel writers as well as Peter, James Jude, Paul were liars, frauds and cheatsd.

e. You have yet to produce any evidence to rebut the claims of the gospels and epistles as to the legitmacy of Jesus existence.

Provide some claims to your rebuts of our evidence and it would be worthwhile to do extra digging.

I wonder if you are like your fellow intellectuals who disavow the holocaust happened?? I have seen their "evidence" At least they put up some semblance of a cogent defense for their position. Your defense to date has been-- " I don't like the evidence you give, I won't tell you why., so give me more". Support your claims then we can proceed.

JerryLove · 09-19-2003, 04:47 PM

Quote:

1. Gop to google search--type in Philo of Alexandria (a contemporary of Jesus ) and peruse to yo9ur hearts content.

2. type in www.ariel.org email Arnold Fruchtenbaum directly, and he will give you many many writings outside of Chrisitians to validate Jesus.

3. You have to do this on your own. You have yet to support any of your assertions.

Let me see if I can sum up your post.... You don't have any eye-witness accounts outside the gospel that you can make direct reference to. You don't have any emperical data that you can make direct reference to. And you don't have any official record that you can make direct reference to.

So, you again make a general and vague reference to this supposed account which we both know at this point does not exist (or you would have brought it up long ago) in hopes to distract from the fact that you have no case.

Quote:

I wonder if you are like your fellow intellectuals who disavow the holocaust happened?? I have seen their "evidence" At least they put up some semblance of a cogent defense for their position.

None of my fellow disavow any such thing... I would put them more in the illogical, adgenda-based, rhetoric spewing religious types.

Joel · 09-19-2003, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Let me see if I can sum up your post.... You don't have any eye-witness accounts outside the gospel that you can make direct reference to. You don't have any emperical data that you can make direct reference to. And you don't have any official record that you can make direct reference to.

So, you again make a general and vague reference to this supposed account which we both know at this point does not exist (or you would have brought it up long ago) in hopes to distract from the fact that you have no case.

Nope. Just challenging you to go look for the info that is there on both of the existing web sites. You made assertions about the integrity and veracity of both the writers of the New Testament and the documents themselves. Now I am just waiting for you to support your assertions!

Empirical evidence abounds!!!!! Now go get it! And see if you can find some info to back up your assertions and hypotheses or were they just linesd tossed out to keep you from the real issues???

If you don't think these websites exist--well make me a liar and just go to them--and then tell me if they are "hypothetical" or real like our Savior! You don't like it when you are given the answers that shred your unsupported claims do you? You keep refusing to look at all the web siters I have posted in so man y different threads because you know they will thouroughly trash your arguments. Just email Dr. Fruchtenbaum and wait until you see how much info you will get.

nolidad · 09-22-2003, 01:11 PM

http://abbc.com/judaism/jesus.htm

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topi.../b_san43a.html

http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/talmud_jesus.htm

Three websites from non christian sources and writings concerning Jesus as well as the reason for the limited amoount of historical documents surrounding Jesus.

JerryLove · 09-22-2003, 08:20 PM

LOL. Did you actually read your own reference? From http://abbc.com/judaism/jesus.htm

Quote:

But if he answers: "It is our duty and seemly for us," the witnesses who were listening outside bring him to Beth din, and have him stoned. ["And thus they did to Ben Stada in Lydda, and they hung him on the even of Passover." Ben Stada was Ben Pandira. R. Hisda said: The husband was Stada, the paramour Pandira. But as not the husband Pappos b. Judah?-His mother's name was Stada. But his mother was Miriam, a dresser of woman's hair?-

*I* have repeatedly cited this one as one of the reasons that Yeshua Ben Yoseph is unlikely... The existance, 100 years earlier of Yeshua Ben Pandira, Son of Pandira (a roman soldier) and Mary Magdeline who went around healing the sick, was convicted by the Jews for sorcery, was stoned to death and then hung from a tree..

YOUR OWN CITE agrees that Pandira was a common name among the Romans, and shows an amazingly similar, but vitally different story from a time a centurey *before* the apostles claim Christ walked.

I'm not really interested in arguing the proof as to Yeshua Ben Yoseph's fabrication; but your cite points to some of the evidence that he was.

Since this is obviously not it (LOL) can you point to any information that supports Yeshua Ben Yoseph? Or will you continue to make my case for me by showing evidence he was fabricated?

nolidad · 09-23-2003, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Since this is obviously not it (LOL) can you point to any information that supports Yeshua Ben Yoseph? Or will you continue to make my case for me by showing evidence he was fabricated?

Well if you read what quite a few rabbis said you would see that Jeshua Ben Pindira reffereed to Jesus Christ. A roman or son of a roman would not have been crucifies (hung on the passover). A ghood jewess woman would not have married a roman soldier and if ben pindira was a jew who became a roman soldier he would hve been shunned by Jewish society. Several interesting websites on the Ben Pindira story and why it refers to Jesus Christ!

nolidad · 09-23-2003, 03:33 PM

I added the pindira account specifically cause you used it as a proof Jeus was made up anjd the Jews cite it as reference to Jesus himself due to their unwillingness to use His name in their writings, plus also you said it was written 100 years earlier (which rabbininc sources I found deny). It appears you should have looked more carefully atr the source of Pindira cause it actually proves Jesus not disproveds him!!!!!

JerryLove · 09-23-2003, 07:07 PM

[quote]Well if you read what quite a few rabbis said you would see that Jeshua Ben Pindira reffereed to Jesus Christ.[/qoute] That's an appeal to authority... What actual proof can you offer for your claim?

Quote:

A roman or son of a roman would not have been crucifies (hung on the passover). A ghood jewess woman would not have married a roman soldier and if ben pindira was a jew who became a roman soldier he would hve been shunned by Jewish society.

Wow, talk about unsupported speculation!

ironically, you are arguing a position you don't believe. You believe that the story of Jeshua Ben Pindira is incorrect (or are you saying that Yeshua was stoned to death by the jews?)

So, other than "quite a few rabbis said", what support can you offer that Yeshua Ben Pindira is Yeshua Bin Joseph?

nolidad · 09-24-2003, 05:21 PM

Quote:

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/kking/extern6.html#Yeshu

Here is one source referencing the Pindira (pantera) story directly to Jesus.

nolidad · 09-24-2003, 05:30 PM

[/QUOTE]ironically, you are arguing a position you don't believe. You believe that the story of Jeshua Ben Pindira is incorrect (or are you saying that Yeshua was stoned to death by the jews?)
[QUOTE]

Well let us look at some historical facts to see why the story as you cited it is very incorrect from a historical perspective.

This Jeshu Pindira could not bew the son of a Roman Soldier for if He was the fortry day announcement of his coming stoining would have brought in the protection of the Roman army. Stonong was not a method of execution Romans used on Romans. Second Jews stoned to death their fellow Jews. As for stoniong a half breed like this Pindira would have been they would have considered him a nonentity, the Sanhedrin would not have taken the case to have passed a death sentnece on him if he was a half breed.

If He was Roman, and charged with a capital crime he would have had the choice of beheading or firing squad by arrows.

Because He was crucified (hanged) shows that the procurator Pilate did not consider him Roman for crucifixion was for non Romans only.

Also if Pindira was born of a Romsan legionarre, he would have had appeal rights to Caesar directly as was the right of all Roman citizens.

Too many conflicting truths to accept the Pindira story as you have presented it.

JerryLove · 09-24-2003, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Well let us look at some historical facts to see why the story as you cited it is very incorrect from a historical perspective.

And here you go into unsupported assertations about weather or not the story is *true*... Of course, if the story *is* true, than the gospel is neccessairily wrong; and if the story is fictitious, then it's hardly useful.

So, is the story of Jeshua Ben Pindira, which tells of Jeshua being stoned to death by the Jews and accurate story? Or is it untrue? What's your position on that?

Joel · 09-24-2003, 08:12 PM

Quote:

http://abbc.com/judaism/jesus.htm

Just another little web site showing how Jesu scame to be called Pindira from a non Christian source.

Quote:

So, is the story of Jeshua Ben Pindira, which tells of Jeshua being stoned to death by the Jews and accurate story? Or is it untrue? What's your position on that?

No because if you carefully read the accounts, Pindira was not stoned, but hung (crucified).

If you want to see the verification for the facts I gave in my last post--Just do a google search on roman methods of executions, read The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, look up crucifixions, And even roman appeals to caesar.

Now I have offerred 2 sites supporting that Jesus of Nazareth is in reality the pindira in the story you originally offeresd awhile ago. These 2 sites are 2 more than you have offered to support your claim that Jesus may only be a myth. Also you have offereds no support to how the disciples would convert their fellowcountrymnen when they would all know Jesus was a myth and the crucifixion account never took place. NOr have you offered any evidence yet as to how the disciples conspired to concoct this stroy in the face of intense persecution of their countrymen. I have a feew more websites, but now I await evidence form you.

JerryLove · 09-24-2003, 10:33 PM

You didn't answer the question... Do you think the story of Jeshua Ben Pindira is a true story? Or do you believe it's fictional?

nolidad · 09-27-2003, 02:38 PM

[/QUOTE]You didn't answer the question... Do you think the story of Jeshua Ben Pindira is a true story? Or do you believe it's fictional?[QUOTE]

True how ? As written? As you asserted; thqat it was written before the time of Christ? As a Jewish writing talking asbout Jesus? Or just simply as written?

While you are pondering which one could you -please provide some evidence to support your asserttion that Jesus maybe just a "ficticious character"?

Also some evidence to support why the New Testament was written as self serving and why you assert the writings are dubious?

Also if you beleive Jesus "maybe" just a myth, could you provide some supporting evidence as to how the disciples could mass seduece their contemporaries who would have known that Jeus was a myth and cause them to convert to idolatry in worshipping and trusting a myth at the cost of their homes, jobs, familkies and even lives?? Any evidence would be appreciated.

Joel · 09-27-2003, 03:00 PM

[/QUOTE]http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Lake/3894/easter/cruhist.html[QUOTE]

This is joels dad btw. This is a website that shows crucixion only reserved for non Romans (with the possible exception of deserters). Thus throwing more doubt to the the assertion that Pindira was born of a Roman soldier- thuis making him a Roman citizen, thus excluding him from death by crucifixion (and stoniong as he would not be considered Jewish unless He became a proslyte.)