[Danny]

Taken from the "God's say in who we date" thread....

I believe that God sovereignly decreed, before the foundation of the earth, every single event, past, present, and future, from the largest to the smallest, both righteous and sinful. Basically, God's perfect will is inevitable. Man cannot counter the sovereign will of God.

BillSPrestonEsq countered this argument by more or less saying that when we sin, we are resisting the will of God for our lives (he can correct me in this if necessary, because I'm not entirely sure what his stance is).


From the other thread:

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

What is, is God's will?

Yep. I can start a new thread on this if you'd like, but I don't really think this is the place for that debate....

So if you get a divorce, it wasn't God's will? Saying that we are able to do something that isn't God's will is taking away His omnipotence. It must be God's will, otherwise it wouldn't happen.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here, but for the record....

I believe that God ordains all of our actions (including our sin), but that doesn't justify us, and it certainly doesn't mean that we've done the "right thing," just because it was God's perfect will.

The contrast between the absolute sovereignty of God and the full responsibility of man for his actions is a necessary paradox.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

actually no paradox is necessarry, or even possible without acusing God of travesty, both are not mutually exclusive, though I see you edited out the part of my post where I pointed out that

What is is God's will => What is is right

For God's will cannot be seperate from his charachter, and in his charachter we find holiness.

The latter is the philosophy of the Marquise DeSade (sadism, sadistic are derived from his names and practices.)

Anselm in his book "on the incarnation" makes it clear why God cannot be unjust. (mods, shall I post a lengthy quote?)

You have degraded God's holiness as he is decreeing by his will that which is contrary to his nature. And God cannot be tempted by evil, nor can he tempt anyone, yet every time I am tempted in your system is a contradiction of the word of God making him a liar.

I charge your worldview calls God a liar, unholy and reduces you to a sadist, (not in action but idelogy)

[BillSPrestonEsq]

N1ghthawk do you wish to debate this in a closed thread with just the 2 of us in the new forum.

I would like very much to do so

[Danny]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

actually no paradox is necessarry, or even possible without acusing God of travesty,

Why not? We are only fallible human beings. We cannot comprehend all of the workings of God. He is not bound by our logic.

both are not mutually exclusive,

I'm unfamiliar with that terminology (forgive my ignorance and/or stupidity ). What do you mean by that?

though I see you edited out the part of my post where I pointed out that

I apologize. I didn't mean to misrepresent your argument. The first line of the quote was the only part I agreed with 100%, so it's the only thing I quoted.

What is is God's will => What is is right

Now we have to define the word "right" here. I believe that God decrees a lot of horrible things (such as abortion, the holocaust, divorce, etc.) for the sake of arriving at a "greater good" (Romans 8:28), and for His ultimate glorification (Revelation 15:3-4).

If "right" is defined by the perfect will of God, then yes; what is, is right. However, if "right" is defined as always pleasant, and seemingly good, I'd have to disagree.

For God's will cannot be seperate from his charachter,

Prove it.

and in his charachter we find holiness.

Agreed.

Anselm in his book "on the incarnation" makes it clear why God cannot be unjust. (mods, shall I post a lengthy quote?)

I'd say it's kind of necessary, as I can't refute it if I don't know what you mean.... I agree that God is always just. The question is, what is the definition of just, in God's eyes?

You have degraded God's holiness as he is decreeing by his will that which is contrary to his nature.

You make it out to seem as if I'm saying that God ordains sin just to get His jollies from watching us burn in hell. That is not the case.

And God cannot be tempted by evil, nor can he tempt anyone,

Agreed.

yet every time I am tempted in your system is a contradiction of the word of God making him a liar.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say here. Can you use more punctuation or something?

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

N1ghthawk do you wish to debate this in a closed thread with just the 2 of us in the new forum.

I would like very much to do so

I would prefer not to do that, if for no other reason than the fact that I'm an inadequate debater, and don't really have enough knowledge in this area to defend my position thouroughly....

If I can get some help from some of the more seasoned Calvinists here, though (via PM or E-Mail), I wouldn't mind doing it.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

So God as just cannot be a causation of injustice, or else justice becomes injustice by virtue of God's charachter being a work of his very nature, and his works cannot contradict his attributes.

In other words, one who cannot behold wickedness cannot create it to behold. Man must be an author of his own depravity which rules out your position.

"He is not bound by our logic."

Than he can create a rond square, or other meaningless constructs, no, he cannot, for his word is truth, and something that defies logic is necessarilly false.

"both are not mutually exclusive"

means a soveriegn will of God reigning omnipotent, and a man having a frree will to reject what God decrees are seperate. We have the decree of God, his word, yet man violates that.

"Now we have to define the word "right" here. I believe that God decrees a lot of horrible things (such as abortion, the holocaust, divorce, etc.) for the sake of arriving at a "greater good" (Romans 8:28), and for His ultimate glorification (Revelation 15:3-4)."

So would you agree God does "evil that good may come"?

"For God's will cannot be seperate from his charachter

prove it"

Simple. If I scheme and plan and set in motion a plan to murder millions, I do not value life. If I will and cause an event to occur, it means in my charachter for whatever reason I desired that event to occur. This means in the charachter of who I am I wish that this occurs. Thus a part of my very charachter desires evil. This is what you are accusing God of.

If his charachter is holy, he will desire holiness, and since he does not change he cannot desire impurity, hence he cannot will what he does not desire to occur to occur.

"You make it out to seem as if I'm saying that God ordains sin just to get His jollies from watching us burn in hell. That is not the case."

Then what would you mean by obtaining glory by demonstrating his wrath on the unrighteous?

repunctuated and clarified for your convenience.

yet every time I am tempted, in your system, is a contradiction of the word of God; making him a liar as he says he cannot tempt.


"I wouldn't mind doing it. "

where is a mod when you need one

[Danny]

So God as just cannot be a causation of injustice, or else justice becomes injustice by virtue of God's charachter being a work of his very nature, and his works cannot contradict his attributes.

In other words, one who cannot behold wickedness cannot create it to behold. Man must be an author of his own depravity which rules out your position.

Is predestination equal to causing something?

If so, do you believe that the murder of Christ was just?

Acts 2:23
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Acts 3:18
18 "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

Acts 4:27-28
27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

We see at the very least, one example of God predestining a horrible, unjust, wretchedly sinful event (the murder of Christ) for the purpose of bringing about a greater good (the redemption of the elect).

Your argument works as a great theory. Unfortunately, it's proven wrong by the most fundamental event in Christianity!

If you'd like, I can also give you plenty of other scriptural examples of God ordaining horrid events for the sake of bringing about good.

Than he can create a rond square, or other meaningless constructs, no, he cannot, for his word is truth, and something that defies logic is necessarilly false.

Something as complex as the nature and workings of God is a little less cut and dry than a "round square." God has even made it clear in scripture that He reserves the right to hold man accountable for his actions, despite the fact that He created them the way they are.

Romans 9
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

means a soveriegn will of God reigning omnipotent, and a man having a frree will to reject what God decrees are seperate.

I never said that man has a free will. I don't believe he does. All I said was that man is 100% responsible for his actions, despite the fact that they were predestined by God.

Let me ask you this. God gave you a sex drive, did He not? He created man with sexual desires. So, when I see a scantily-dressed woman walking down the street, and lust, am I not responsible for this lust because God created me with a sex drive?

We have the decree of God, his word, yet man violates that.

We have the commands of God, and we have the law that God has given us, but He has never revealed to us His divine, perfect will. Man violates the commands of God, but man cannot thwart the sovereign will of God, or else He is no longer sovereign.

So would you agree God does "evil that good may come"?

God predestines us to do evil, as I showed in the example of His predestining the murder of His Son. Predestining others to carry out events is not equivalent to carrying out those events, oneself.

Simple. If I scheme and plan and set in motion a plan to murder millions, I do not value life.

What if I plan the brutal, unjust murder of one, in order to save the lives of billions of others?

If I will and cause an event to occur, it means in my charachter for whatever reason I desired that event to occur. This means in the charachter of who I am I wish that this occurs. Thus a part of my very charachter desires evil. This is what you are accusing God of.

Wrong. Keeping with the example of Christ's death, God desired to save His elect. However, the only way for this to come about while retaining justice, was through the sacrifice of His Son. So He predestined it to occur, because He desired to save His sheep.

If his charachter is holy, he will desire holiness, and since he does not change he cannot desire impurity,

He sure seemed to desire that His perfect Son be brutally murdered for the sake of undeserving sinners.

hence he cannot will what he does not desire to occur to occur.

Agreed. But what makes you think that He never desires for evil things to occur, in order that better things may be brought about?

Then what would you mean by obtaining glory by demonstrating his wrath on the unrighteous?

repunctuated and clarified for your convenience.

Haha, thanks for the clarification. I'm not going to deny that, but that's not the sole reason for God's predestination of all events. It's not only for His glorification. It's also for the sake of justice. See Romans 8:28. He causes everything to work together for our good.

yet every time I am tempted, in your system, is a contradiction of the word of God; making him a liar as he says he cannot tempt.

When did I even imply that God tempts us to sin? Once again...He predestines. He ordains. This does not mean He is the one directly carrying out the actions.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

It is too late for me to post a long rebuttal tonight, but Donny, I do not hold your said distinction can exist. I will attempt to show it as an imposibility from scripture. I am very sleepy (thi me and nighthawk agreed would be one on one....) I need to have that abided by or my next, which should be lengthy and explanatory will be my last in this thread, because I cannot take on 5 of you at once. I am just one man.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

(thi me and nighthawk agreed would be one on one....) I need to have that abided by or my next, which should be lengthy and explanatory will be my last in this thread, because I cannot take on 5 of you at once. I am just one man.

Understandable.

Though, neither plaidchild nor Donny made any real rebuttal. They sort of just clarified things I already meant to establish anyway, but maybe didn't word perfectly.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Originally Posted by N1ghthawk

Understandable.

Though, neither plaidchild nor Donny made any real rebuttal. They sort of just clarified things I already meant to establish anyway, but maybe didn't word perfectly.

sorry, just don't want to ge swarmed is all.

[Travis]

Why are there posts from anyone other than Bill and Dan in here?

[Mike Graham]

Originally Posted by Travis

Why are there posts from anyone other than Bill and Dan in here?

They got moved over with the rest of the thread.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Is predestination equal to causing something?

Me: yes, though it involves planning and causation, so lets say your worldview makes God responsible for every sin ever... ...plus conspiracy

If so, do you believe that the murder of Christ was just?

Acts 2:23
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

Acts 3:18
18 "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

Acts 4:27-28
27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

me: firstly, no I do not believe it was just. but then again this is not a problem for my system of belief. It is for yours. God through foreknowledge knew of the fall in eternity past. (fair statement that we both believe that) secondly, God knew man's reaction to Christ before thee world began, but yet God in his holiness cannot be responsible for the actions which led to this event. He foreordained the atonement, as your verse says, through foreknowledge.


I and everyone but deists and open theists will agree that God can and does bend mens wills. The issue is whether he does this all the time. I hold my fiances hand, she is a girl. Does that mean I hold the hand of every woman? It follows your form. God controlled the actions of pilate, pilate was a man, hence all are under God's direct decree.


We see at the very least, one example of God predestining a horrible, unjust, wretchedly sinful event (the murder of Christ) for the purpose of bringing about a greater good (the redemption of the elect).

me: through foreknowledge of the wickedness in man, which God could not plan.

Your argument works as a great theory. Unfortunately, it's proven wrong by the most fundamental event in Christianity!

me: not quite, not by a long shot.

If you'd like, I can also give you plenty of other scriptural examples of God ordaining horrid events for the sake of bringing about good.

me: you accuse God of a damning sin.

Romans 3:8
And why not do evil that good may come?--as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

Something as complex as the nature and workings of God is a little less cut and dry than a "round square." God has even made it clear in scripture that He reserves the right to hold man accountable for his actions, despite the fact that He created them the way they are.

me: Romans 9, the most abused passage in scripture... Anyway, to start out with God cannot be illogical in the way I showed your point to be. It was a contradiction God cannot be holy and not holy. Just and not just, or will righteousness as a holy God and decree or cause to be that which is not holy.

The key word in Romans 9 is the hated in the verse prior to what you quoted. It means in the Greek, to make a stench in ones nostrils. Why was Esau hated? Why did God harden him? Look this up in Genesis. It is foundational to the meaning of the passage and is complete eisegesis on the calvinistic side.

I never said that man has a free will. I don't believe he does. All I said was that man is 100% responsible for his actions, despite the fact that they were predestined by God.

me: I take a knife shove it in your hands and grip them from the outside. I force your hand to slit your mothers throat. Who committed murder?

Let me ask you this. God gave you a sex drive, did He not? He created man with sexual desires. So, when I see a scantily-dressed woman walking down the street, and lust, am I not responsible for this lust because God created me with a sex drive?

Me: No, but only because God did not give me an irresistible choice. I need not lust, I can resist the sin, hence it is not predestined by God that I sin, it is solely my fault, though in your worldview there is no logical way for you to not say "The Lord made me do it" Pretty sorry view of God, to be honest, so holy, he devinely decrees and forces sin.

We have the commands of God, and we have the law that God has given us, but He has never revealed to us His divine, perfect will. Man violates the commands of God, but man cannot thwart the sovereign will of God, or else He is no longer sovereign.

me: Man can violate the will of God, Or universalism is true.

Mark 3
35 Whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother."

You violate the will of God

1 Thessalonians 5
18give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Have I established that God's will can be broken while God remains soveriegn or shall I go on?

God predestines us to do evil, as I showed in the example of His predestining the murder of His Son. Predestining others to carry out events is not equivalent to carrying out those events, oneself.

me: In the example I showed from parts of the text you ignored and an illustration this is a mere assertion, and a false one.

What if I plan the brutal, unjust murder of one, in order to save the lives of billions of others?

me: then you are a damned murderer, for you know that no murderer hath the son of God in him.

Agreed. But what makes you think that He never desires for evil things to occur, in order that better things may be brought about?

Me:Isaiah 6 What do the seraphs cry?

When did I even imply that God tempts us to sin? Once again...He predestines. He ordains. This does not mean He is the one directly carrying out the actions.

Me: Nor was I the one who slit your mothers throat in my illustration, I merely predestined it.

[Danny]

First of all, could you use quotes or something to differentiate between what you're saying and what I'm saying? It's kinda confusing....

me: firstly, no I do not believe it was just. but then again this is not a problem for my system of belief. It is for yours.

How so?

God through foreknowledge knew of the fall in eternity past. (fair statement that we both believe that)

Correct.

secondly, God knew man's reaction to Christ before thee world began, but yet God in his holiness cannot be responsible for the actions which led to this event. He foreordained the atonement, as your verse says, through foreknowledge.

You're right. God is not responsible for the murder of His Son. He did not murder Him. However, He did predestine it, or did the passages I gave not make that clear enough? Let me quote them again, using some emphasis this time....

Acts 2:23
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

The scripture mentions foreknowledge, yes, but notice that it is also by the "predetermined plan" of God. This, plus the fact that the other two scriptures mention nothing of foreknowledge, implies that Christ's death was not only foreknown by God, but it was predestined.

Acts 3:18
18 "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

Note, He (presumably the Father, though I may be wrong) has thus fulfilled. This implies action on the part of God, not just foreknowledge.

And then, the most blatent of them all:

Acts 4:27-28
27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

This was not merely foreknown by God, it was predestined. This verse explicitly states that the actions of Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the peoples of Israel were predestined by God. If you can't even admit to this fact after three scriptures that blatently attest to it, I see no reason to continue this debate.

I and everyone but deists and open theists will agree that God can and does bend mens wills. The issue is whether he does this all the time. I hold my fiances hand, she is a girl. Does that mean I hold the hand of every woman? It follows your form. God controlled the actions of pilate, pilate was a man, hence all are under God's direct decree.

Well, which is it? Did God predestine Christ's murder, or did He not? I did not mean to imply, by these scriptures alone, that God always works in this way. I was merely refuting your idea that God can never predestine horrible events and still be holy.

me: through foreknowledge of the wickedness in man, which God could not plan.

And now we're back to this. The scripture I posted blatently says that Christ's unjust murder was, in fact, planned and predestined by God.

me: you accuse God of a damning sin.

Romans 3:8
And why not do evil that good may come?--as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

Prove, scripturally, that predestination of events is equivalent to carrying out those events oneself. God does not do evil. He predestines others to do evil. Did He not harden the heart of Pharaoh, causing him to rebel against the command of God to release His people? Did He not do the same to Sihon in Deuteronomy 2? Did He not turn nearly every city against the nation of Israel in Joshua 11? I have a few more examples, but at the moment, I'm too lazy to look them all up.... I'll provide them if you'd like, though.

me: Romans 9, the most abused passage in scripture... Anyway, to start out with God cannot be illogical in the way I showed your point to be.

God cannot hold man responsible for his actions, despite the fact that He ordained them?

It was a contradiction God cannot be holy and not holy. Just and not just,

Who said God is unholy or unjust?

or will righteousness as a holy God and decree or cause to be that which is not holy.

Prove scripturally that righteousness is always God's perfect plan for us.

The key word in Romans 9 is the hated in the verse prior to what you quoted. It means in the Greek, to make a stench in ones nostrils. Why was Esau hated? Why did God harden him? Look this up in Genesis. It is foundational to the meaning of the passage and is complete eisegesis on the calvinistic side.

I don't really understand what you're getting at here, so why don't you explain to me your interpretation of Romans 9 (I'm sorry if you've had to do this repeatedly in the past, but I honestly have never seen an Arminian interpretation of this passage)?

me: I take a knife shove it in your hands and grip them from the outside. I force your hand to slit your mothers throat. Who committed murder?

Invalid analogy. This implies that you forced me to murder my mother against my will. If you predestined for me to have passionate hatred for my mother, even to the point that I desired to kill her, and I did, the blood is on my hands, not yours.

Me: No, but only because God did not give me an irresistible choice.

Granted. It was an invalid analogy, and a bit of a cheap shot. I apologize.

I need not lust, I can resist the sin,

Not if you're unregenerate, you can't.

Romans 8:7
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
(emphasis mine)

hence it is not predestined by God that I sin,

Psalm 33:13-15
13 The LORD looks from heaven;
He sees all the sons of men;
14 From His dwelling place He looks out
On all the inhabitants of the earth,
15 He who fashions the hearts of them all,
He who understands all their works.

Proverbs 16:1, 9
1 The plans of the heart belong to man,
But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.
[...]
9 The mind of man plans his way,
But the LORD directs his steps.

Proverbs 19:21
21 Many plans are in a man's heart,
But the counsel of the LORD will stand.

it is solely my fault,

Agreed.

though in your worldview there is no logical way for you to not say "The Lord made me do it"

If you can come up with scriptural, rather than just "logical" proof, I'll agree with you. Otherwise, that statement seems to contradict scripture.

Pretty sorry view of God, to be honest, so holy, he devinely decrees and forces sin.

Please use scriptural, rather than emotional arguments. Back-handed insults will hardly help your position.

me: Man can violate the will of God, Or universalism is true.

Mark 3
35 Whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother."

You violate the will of God

1 Thessalonians 5
18give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Have I established that God's will can be broken while God remains soveriegn or shall I go on?

And here is where we need to make the distinction between God's moral will (in other words, what He commands), and God's sovereign will (what He decrees). Otherwise, scripture contradicts itself, which cannot be.

Isaiah 46:10
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, 'My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

So, He will accomplish all His good pleasure, except when man decides to thwart His plan? Basically, what you're saying is that God is sovereign, despite man's ability to violate His perfect will, and you call my position illogical?

me: In the example I showed from parts of the text you ignored and an illustration this is a mere assertion, and a false one.

What part of the text did I ignore, exactly? I may have accidentally skipped over something. And which part of my stance is a "mere assertion;" that God predestined the murder of His Son, or that predestination =/= direct action?

me: then you are a damned murderer, for you know that no murderer hath the son of God in him.

Lol, you just called God a "damned murderer," unless you hold that God didn't in fact predestine the murder of His Son, in which case God did not intentionally plan the atonement of sin; He just foreknew that it would happen (which is a contradiction of even John 3:16, which states that God specifically sent His Son to die).

Me:Isaiah 6 What do the seraphs cry?

Strawman. I never stated that God wasn't holy, and you have yet to prove scripturally that God's predestination of events equates to literally carrying out those actions, or did God literally drive the nails through His Son's hands, Himself?

Me: Nor was I the one who slit your mothers throat in my illustration, I merely predestined it.

No you didn't. You forced it, against my will. See my earlier rebuttal of this analogy.

[Luke]

Thread closed due to an excess of a month of inactivity without notice.

Grace & Peace
Luke