[BillSPrestonEsq]

1) God is soveriegn. Calvinist and Arminian agree on this point, but what does this entail.

2) God has other atributes as well, such as love, for all mankind. (I can back up that statemnt with a dozen scriptures, please don't bother contesting it, save your protests for my point.

3) the main point: Why do Calvinists believe soveriegnty = ordaining every event that will happen from before the foundation of the world? This actually negates total depravity from the responsibility of a man and reduces it to an irresistible force. Thus depravity must be an attribute of God's will if he created it as such according to his will foreordaining depraved events.

Only if a man has a free will can he be depraved, else depravity is an attribute of God's will which is only consistent with maltheism.

don't tell me I just misunderstand calvinism. Explain how a sovereign God (in the calvinistic sense not of all powerful, but all controlling) can ordain depravity if he cannot tempt a man to sin and retain his holiness as an attribute. Holiness and depravity cannot coexist, so as I see it either God is depraved or we as human creatures sinned and thus contradicted God's will and resisted his grace and plan.Either we have a freewill or God committed every sin ever committed, meaning his holiness does not exist.

The solution I see is soveriegnty. Retaining power, but not always wielding it, knowing every event, but not being the sole causation thereof. We must keep holiness, love soveriegnty, justice, jealousy and all attributes of God in balance in our theology, not hold soveriegnty as the only one and over define it to the point of negation of other attributes. If a Calvinist, (preferably must be nothing) could answer this charge I would be grateful to see how it plays out.

I think it is clear that both calvinist and arminian, (but neither hyper calvinist or open theist) believe in soveriegnty, but hold it to a different meaning.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

3) the main point: Why do Calvinists believe soveriegnty = ordaining every event that will happen from before the foundation of the world?

Because The Scriptures say so:

God's Absolute Predestination
1. All of nature (Genesis 8:22; Job 38-40; Psalms 65:9-11; 135:5-7; 147:15-18; 104:10-30; 107:23-32; 145:15-16; 147:8-9; Acts 14:17, etc.)

2. "Random" events (Proverbs 16:33; Exodus 21:13; Judges 9:53; 1 Kings 22:34).

3. Large natural events (Exodus 9:13-26; Amos 4:7; Genesis 41:32)

4. The smallest natural events (Matthew 5:45; 6:26-30; 10:29-30).

5. All large events in human history (Acts 17:26; Psalms 45:6-12; 47:1-9; 95:3; cf. Genesis 18:25; Psalms 33:10-11).

6. The conception of each person (Genesis 4:1, 25; 18:13-14; 25:21; 29:31-30:2; 30:17, 23-24; Deuteronomy 10:22; Ruth 4:13; Psalms 113:9; 127:3-5); afterwards: Psalms 139:4-6.

7. All small human events (Exodus 21:13; Ruth 1:13; 1 Samuel 2:6-7; Psalms 37:23).

8. The differences among humans (Romans 12:3-6; 1 Corinthians 4:7; 12:4-6), as well as our futures (James 4:13-16; also see Luke 12:13-21 and Jeremiah 10:23).

9. The free decisions of people
a. Basic Examples: Genesis 45:5-8; Isaiah 44:28; Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23-24; 3:18; 4:27-28; 13:27.

b. Key proof-texts/examples: Proverbs 21:1; Romans 9:17; Exodus 9:16; 14:4; Psalms 33:15; Exodus 12:36; Exodus 3:21-22; Proverbs 16:9; 16:1; 19:21; Exodus 34:24; Judges 7:22; Daniel 1:9; Ezra 6:22; Matthew 16:21; 24:6; Mark 8:31; 9:11; 13:7, 10, 14; Luke 9:22; 17:25; 24:26)

c. Though the Problem of Evil is "a mystery (Job 38-42), God has a supremely good purpose for ordaining evil that one day will silence all his critics and evoke praise (Romans 8:28-39; 9:17-24; Revelation 15:3-4)" (Frame's _No Other God_, p. 68). Thus,

d. God ordains/causes sin and evil (Psalms 105:24; Exodus 4:21; 7:3, 13; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8, 17-18; Romans 9:18; Romans 1:24-32; Deuteronomy 2:30; Joshua 11:18-20; 1 Samuel 2:25; 2 Chronicles 25:20; 1 Samuel 16:14; 1 Kings 22:20-23; Judges 9:23; 2 Kings 19:5-7; 1 Thessalonians 2:11-12; Isaiah 63:17; 64:7; Isaiah 10:5-11; Ezekiel 38:16; Judges 14:4; 2 Samuel 2:4).

10. The election of individuals unto eternal life (Acts 13:48; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 5:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Ephesians 1:4-6; etc., etc.).

[Luke]

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

2) God has other atributes as well, such as love, for all mankind. (I can back up that statemnt with a dozen scriptures, please don't bother contesting it, save your protests for my point.

Nobody denies it anyway.

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

This actually negates total depravity from the responsibility of a man and reduces it to an irresistible force. Thus depravity must be an attribute of God's will if he created it as such according to his will foreordaining depraved events.

Only if a man has a free will can he be depraved, else depravity is an attribute of God's will which is only consistent with maltheism.

Free will and depravity are not necessary partners, but rather complete opposites. If one has a free will, then one cannot be depraved, because one is capable of good. This is simple logic.

You are stating (wrongly) that man is not responsible because of his lack of free will. But where does Scripture ever base responsibility on free will? God has the right to call His creatures to account for ontological reasons alone.

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

Explain how a sovereign God (in the calvinistic sense not of all powerful, but all controlling) can ordain depravity if he cannot tempt a man to sin and retain his holiness as an attribute.

Because He is neither sinning nor tempting. Remember that something that God does is good because God does it. God is the standard of goodness, not vice versa as your mind makes it.

Originally Posted by BillSPrestonEsq

I think it is clear that both calvinist and arminian, (but neither hyper calvinist or open theist) believe in soveriegnty, but hold it to a different meaning.

Arminians bastardize God's sovereignty and reduce it to a piddily, meaningless little word that is sacrificed over and over again on the altar of man's self-esteem. What happened to the God who does all He pleases (Isaish 46:10), gathers the evil to do what His hand predestined to occur (Acts 4:26-28), and brings both good and evil (Isaiah 45:7)?

Grace & Peace
Luke

[Chrysostom]

(BillSPrestonEsq) 1) God is soveriegn. Calvinist and Arminian agree on this point, but what does this entail.

(Me) Some popular Arminian writers support the slogan "God sovereignly chose not to be sovereign." The credible scholars tend to try to redefine sovereignty around libertarian free will. Since libertarian free will makes God's choices contingent, I would imagine that He can only be called sovereign in a weaker sense of the word, and definitely not in the kind of sense that Psalm 33 or Lamentations 3 ascribe to Him.



(BillSPrestonEsq) 2) God has other atributes as well, such as love, for all mankind. (I can back up that statemnt with a dozen scriptures, please don't bother contesting it, save your protests for my point.

(Me) Only Hyper-Calvinists believe that God does not love mankind. They are not Calvinists at all.



(BillSPrestonEsq) 3) the main point: Why do Calvinists believe soveriegnty = ordaining every event that will happen from before the foundation of the world?

(Me) The Scriptures teach that He works all things according to the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11). He has immutably declared the ends from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). Unlike man's weak counsel may fail (Psalm 33:10), the decree of the Lord -- His purpose for all people -- stands firm (Psalm 33:11). His decree is a blessing for the people He has chosen for Himself (Psalm 33:12; cf. Ephesians 1:11). He is in control of all the thoughts, actions, and decisions of men (Psalm 33:13-15). No man does anything that He has not ordained (Lamentations 3:37-38).

So, to draw a simple inference, since all occurs according to God's decree (shown above), His decree is especially relevant to the people whom He has chosen for Himself (Ephesians 1:11; Psalm 33:12), and His decree to save those whom He had chosen for Himself occurred "before the foundations of the Earth" (Ephesians 1:4-5), it follows that He must have decreed whatsoever comes to pass from before the foundation of the Earth.

Ephesians 1:11
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Isaiah 46:10
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,'

Psalm 33:10-15
10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever,
the plans of his heart to all generations.
12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord,
the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!
13 The Lord looks down from heaven;
he sees all the children of man;
14 from where he sits enthroned he looks out
on all the inhabitants of the earth,
15 he who fashions the hearts of them all
and observes all their deeds.

Lamentations 3:37-38
37 Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,


(BillSPrestonEsq) This actually negates total depravity from the responsibility of a man and reduces it to an irresistible force.

(Me) No, because man's depravity results from his choice in the Garden.



(BillSPrestonEsq) Thus depravity must be an attribute of God's will if he created it as such according to his will foreordaining depraved events.

(Me) I don't see how this follows. Depravity is an attribute of man's will in that it describes the nature of man's will. Nowhere does the doctrine of Total Depravity claim that God's will is depraven. There, it does not follow that depravity is an attribute of God's will.



(BillSPrestonEsq) Only if a man has a free will can he be depraved, else depravity is an attribute of God's will which is only consistent with maltheism.

(Me) If a man is depraved, he is in bondage to sin, and his will is not really free. The view of the Augustinian-Calvinist tradition on God's decree and free will is based in our view of grace: we believe that God's (effectual) grace is irresistible, and that the kind of freedom about which we should really be concerned is the freedom from our sinful hearts.



(BillSPrestonEsq) don't tell me I just misunderstand calvinism. Explain how a sovereign God (in the calvinistic sense not of all powerful, but all controlling) can ordain depravity if he cannot tempt a man to sin and retain his holiness as an attribute. Holiness and depravity cannot coexist, so as I see it either God is depraved or we as human creatures sinned and thus contradicted God's will and resisted his grace and plan.Either we have a freewill or God committed every sin ever committed, meaning his holiness does not exist.

(Me) God's ordaining actions is not equivalent with God's performing the actions. The most heinous crime of all history -- the murder of our Lord and Savior -- was predestined (Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28), and yet those agents who killed Him are responsible for that murder. God did not perform the action.

Decreeing or predestining is not equivalent to tempting. Temptation has to do with advocating sinful behavior -- externally persuading or enticing a person to sin. Thus, when we are looking at tempting, we are looking at God's revealed will -- and He only commands good. On the other hand, God's predestination has to do with His hidden will -- He brings certain events to pass, conditions hearts, and so on. This is an internal, not external, metaphysical change.



(BillSPrestonEsq) The solution I see is soveriegnty. Retaining power, but not always wielding it, knowing every event, but not being the sole causation thereof.

(Me) I don't see how our view of God's decree means that God is the sole causation of events. We confessionally declare the following:

WCF III - Of God's Eternal Decree
I. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]

We customarily say that God decrees for evil acts to be done by permitting agents -- secondary causes -- to perform them.