Some more deep Eschatology issues

**+Donny** · 08-06-2003, 01:49 PM

Okay, here is the biggest issue for me right now:

We understand that we, upon regeneration, are lifted up with Christ and seated in the heavenlies, judging and reigning with Christ and worshipping Him (Ephesians 2; Revelation 20). Thus, in heaven, we are perfect (logically, since we are in heaven) and we worship Christ continually. However, on earth, we are still working out our salvation through sanctification. Thus, in heaven, we (and also the Church) are perfected. The heavenly kingdom of God is perfect. On earth, we (and also the Church) are being perfected. The earthly kingdom of God will become perfect through Christ's husbandly duties (Ephesians 5).

My question is how this relates to the body/soul issue. First, when is our soul, on earth, perfected? Is it upon regeneration? If so, why then are we still sanctified? If it at the resurrection? If so, where does our soul go while our body lies in the grace? Is our soul perfected upon death? If so, is it because we go to heaven upon our death? That would seem to run into the earlier issue of us being in heaven and earth simultaneously. Our two "natures" (for lack of a better term) would then seem to be running into each other. How can our earthly soul go to heaven and be with our heavenly body and soul?

The only solutions I have seen is that our soul is perfected at the resurrection with our body and our soul waits in hades/sheol until then or that our entire earthly nature is in the grace until the resurrection, having only our heavenly nature.

**Chrysostom** · 08-06-2003, 06:30 PM

(+Donny) First, when is our soul, on earth, perfected?

(Me) Glorification. We wait in "paradise" for this (according to Jesus talking to the thief on the cross).

You should get Richard Gaffin's Resurrection and Redemption.

Blindman · 08-06-2003, 06:41 PM

It isn't just our souls that are perfected, it's our whole selves. I would guess that that perfection comes at the time when we exchange our corrupted mortal bodies for incorruptible immortal ones...

**+Donny** · 08-08-2003, 12:18 PM

Quote:

(Me) Glorification. We wait in "paradise" for this (according to Jesus talking to the thief on the cross).

You should get Richard Gaffin's Resurrection and Redemption.

So our soul and our body are perfected at the same time?

Okay, what is paradise? If its not heaven, what is it? If it is heaven, wouldn't our souls, like our heavenly "natures" (again, bad terminology), have to be perfect to reside there?

Quote:

It isn't just our souls that are perfected, it's our whole selves. I would guess that that perfection comes at the time when we exchange our corrupted mortal bodies for incorruptible immortal ones...

Yes, we know that our bodies are perfected then. The question is about our souls. Is it at the same time? Is it before?

**Chrysostom** · 08-08-2003, 01:44 PM

(Previous) Glorification. We wait in "paradise" for this (according to Jesus talking to the thief on the cross).

You should get Richard Gaffin's Resurrection and Redemption.

(+Donny) So our soul and our body are perfected at the same time?

(Me) I see no reason to think otherwise.

(+Donny) Okay, what is paradise? If its not heaven, what is it? If it is heaven, wouldn't our souls, like our heavenly "natures" (again, bad terminology), have to be perfect to reside there?

(Me) It is a place before the consummation, so I don't see why we would have to be glorified yet.

joelsdad · 08-08-2003, 03:27 PM

Quote:

So our soul and our body are perfected at the same time?

the answer to this is an emphatic NO!!!!!!!!!!!
Hebrews--He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified
Romans trhroughout shows Paul talking about the new man bewing formed in the image of Christ and the old man (our human nature) being declared dead and rendered inoperative.

Paul also said in Corinthians..."to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The intermediate staste between death and the millenial kingdom is biblically cloaked. There is almost nothing to be said about it. The body at death gopes to the grave, but the soul and spirit go to be with Christ. The rewardss have not been issued (the bema seat judgment for beleivers hasn't occurred yet) the fine linenes haven't occurred yet. Paradise or abrahams bosom in hell is now a closed place. When Jeus sascended He led the souls with him. The only compartmnents left in hell are the place of torments and Tartarus as spoken of in Jude where the angels who left their first estate and came to earth and procreatred with human women are chained to await judgment.

**+Donny** · 08-08-2003, 10:09 PM

Quote:

+Donny) Okay, what is paradise? If its not heaven, what is it? If it is heaven, wouldn't our souls, like our heavenly "natures" (again, bad terminology), have to be perfect to reside there?

(Me) It is a place before the consummation, so I don't see why we would have to be glorified yet.

If it is heaven, then we would have to be perfect to reside there, no? Plus, would that not conflict with our heavenly "natures"? If its not, then what is it?

Quote:

the answer to this is an emphatic NO!!!!!!!!!!!
Hebrews--He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified
Romans trhroughout shows Paul talking about the new man bewing formed in the image of Christ and the old man (our human nature) being declared dead and rendered inoperative.

We are still being sanctified, and thus are not consummationally perfect.

Quote:

Paul also said in Corinthians..."to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The intermediate staste between death and the millenial kingdom is biblically cloaked. There is almost nothing to be said about it. The body at death gopes to the grave, but the soul and spirit go to be with Christ. The rewardss have not been issued (the bema seat judgment for beleivers hasn't occurred yet) the fine linenes haven't occurred yet. Paradise or abrahams bosom in hell is now a closed place. When Jeus sascended He led the souls with him. The only compartmnents left in hell are the place of torments and Tartarus as spoken of in Jude where the angels who left their first estate and came to earth and procreatred with human women are chained to await judgment.

You didn't deal with Ephesians 2 and us being in heaven currently.

**Chrysostom** · 08-08-2003, 10:43 PM

(Previous) It is a place before the consummation, so I don't see why we would have to be glorified yet.

(+Donny) If it is heaven, then we would have to be perfect to reside there, no? Plus, would that not conflict with our heavenly "natures"? If its not, then what is it?

(Me) Meaning, I think that "paradise" is the place for the righteous pre-consummation. At the consummation, we will have the Judgment, and then "heaven" is going to come. So, "paradise" wouldn't be "heaven."

**Chrysostom** · 08-08-2003, 10:46 PM

Question for you Donny:

Why do you care about this?

**+Donny** · 08-08-2003, 11:00 PM

Quote:

(Me) Meaning, I think that "paradise" is the place for the righteous pre-consummation. At the consummation, we will have the Judgment, and then "heaven" is going to come. So, "paradise" wouldn't be "heaven."

Okay, I just wanted to clarify that "paradise" is not heaven, which is the place that is spoken of in Ephesians 2 and Revelation.

Now, where in scripture does it speak of this paradise besides at the cross to the repentant thief?

Quote:

Question for you Donny:

Why do you care about this?

I just started corresponding to a friend about these issues over email again. He recently was married, so there was a long break in it. I am now a partial preterist because of the ideas he brought up, but he is neither a full preterist or a futurist. He is claiming that full preterism declares either a never-perfect church or an already-perfect church and therefore is impossible. He also claims that any brand of futurism fundamentally messes up the Soul/Body disinction and God's relation to time. I couldn't explain it here myself, because I myself am quite confused by it. The issue here is the main issue we are talking about, but the other one is about Christ's coming(s). He is taking the view that is one coming that is manifested on earth twive (once in AD 70 and once in the future). Thus, he professes a future coming and recognizes the need for it, but believes that because of the confused relationship between heaven and earth and time, futurists misunderstand the issue. I could give you his email address if you want to speak to him or I could copy our emails and send them to you.

**+Donny** · 08-11-2003, 12:37 AM

*bump*

this is interesting me too much to lose this thread.

**Chrysostom** · 08-11-2003, 12:54 AM

I don't know how I lost this thread

(Previous) Meaning, I think that "paradise" is the place for the righteous pre-consummation. At the consummation, we will have the Judgment, and then "heaven" is going to come. So, "paradise" wouldn't be "heaven."

(+Donny) Okay, I just wanted to clarify that "paradise" is not heaven, which is the place that is spoken of in Ephesians 2 and Revelation.

(Me) The "heavenly places," yes. No, I don't see why "paradise" would be that.

(+Donny) Now, where in scripture does it speak of this paradise besides at the cross to the repentant thief?

(Me) I have no idea.

**+Donny** · 08-11-2003, 08:34 PM

Okay, now the last question for now: How is this paradise related to Sheol?

Sheol seems to be done away with by Christ when He descended into it and preached to those there, leading "captivity captive". Is Sheol gone now and Paradise in its place as the waiting place? What about hell? Do those who are unregenerate immediately go to hell upon death?

joelsdad · 08-12-2003, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Sheol seems to be done away with by Christ when He descended into it and preached to those there, leading "captivity captive". Is Sheol gone now and Paradise in its place as the waiting place? What about hell? Do those who are unregenerate immediately go to hell upon death?

No Sheol is not gone, only the pareadise portion of it. Sheoil, Hades, hell, the grave is divided into three seperate components. 1. Abrashams bosom (or paradise) 2. the place of torments, and 3. Tartarus, where the angels of Genesis 6 are held in chains awaiting judgment and casting n tot he lake of fire.

**+Donny** · 08-12-2003, 05:26 PM

Then please tell me a few things:

1)Why was it such a noteworthy thing that the thief was going to Sheol?

2)What does Ephesians talk about when it speaks of Christ leading "captivity captive"?

3)Shouldn't there be a different in the New Testament, so now we go to be with Christ upon death (Philippians 1:23)?