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Unread 07-09-2003, 09:31 PM   #1
Contradiction is Balance
 
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You guys have a right to know this.

This is almost certainly not the proper forum for this, but I figure it'll get put in it's proper place eventually, and I don't know where it goes. Sorry in advance.

Hey all. I'm here to say that I'm not a Christian anymore. I sat down and thought about it about a month ago, and looked at both the world with God and the world without God, trying to be as impartial as I could, and with logic from both sides. It just seems to me like the "without God" side is more logical and less self-contradictory than the "with God" side. There are just WAY too many things that don't add up. Mind you, there are things that don't add up on either side but it just seems to me that the atheism side of things doesn't have the million and one conflicting messages. I'm also really jaded with organized religion too, there's so much crap going on in the church these days that I just wanna get as far away from it as possible.

I figured you guys had a right to know, and not to have you thinking that I'm something I'm not.


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Unread 07-09-2003, 09:40 PM   #2
so much
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC
This is almost certainly not the proper forum for this, but I figure it'll get put in it's proper place eventually, and I don't know where it goes. Sorry in advance.
It fits much better in Apologetics. *whoosh*

Quote:
Hey all. I'm here to say that I'm not a Christian anymore.
This is an impossibility, if, in fact, you ever were a Christian. The Bible ensures us time and time again that God does not lose any of those who are His.

In His love,
Nate
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Unread 07-09-2003, 09:40 PM   #3
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ha... wow

a lot of comments are going through my head right now but I don't know how to say them so I'm just gunna keep my mouth shut for now
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Unread 07-09-2003, 09:42 PM   #4
Contradiction is Balance
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeyboardFreak
This is an impossibility, if, in fact, you ever were a Christian. The Bible ensures us time and time again that God does not lose any of those who are His.
Well then perhaps temporary skeptic/disbeliever would be better for you.
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Unread 07-09-2003, 09:46 PM   #5
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What is it about the "with God" worldview that you find so illogical and self-contradictory?

In His love,
Nate
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(b) This state or a political subdivision of this state may not create or
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Unread 07-09-2003, 09:54 PM   #6
Contradiction is Balance
 
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I think George Carlin summed it up best as such (edited for content):

"When it comes to lies, big-time, major league lies, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest crap story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you!

He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good story. Holy crap!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is screwed up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the rťsumť of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of crap you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude."

Read the first paragraph again, and think about it. Really think about it. He loves you, but he'll send you to burn and be tortured for eternity in a heartbeat if you don't do what he tells you to do. Does this honestly sound like unconditional love to you?
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Unread 07-09-2003, 10:00 PM   #7
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He loves you, but he'll send you to burn and be tortured for eternity in a heartbeat if you don't do what he tells you to do. Does this honestly sound like unconditional love to you?
THIS is the main thing that tipped me off. I don't want to believe in an uncompassionate God who's gonna brutalize me cause I lived life the way I felt like living life. If he loves us unconditionally, doesn't it make sense that he'd forgive us anyways and want to be with us?

It sounds to me like a story a parent would make up to scare his kid into staying in bed at night, like monsters under the bed, only just blown massively out of proportion by the superstitious peasants of the Middle Ages into what it is today.

Face it. Eventually, in a few thousand years, Christianity is gonna end up just like we view the Greek religious system. As a bunch of made-up crap seen as a major flaw of our age.
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Unread 07-09-2003, 10:10 PM   #8
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Hmmm...well, Christianity was never really a works based religion, but if it was, I could see how Carlin has a point.
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Unread 07-09-2003, 10:14 PM   #9
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ALL religions are works-based at their core. Christianity is no different. Like it's said "faith without works is nothing". So therefore it would be faith AND works that save you, not just faith.
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Unread 07-09-2003, 10:17 PM   #10
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Firstly, it's a comedic routine... so try not to argue the minutia rather than the point.

As to the works argument... there are two possabilities.. .You get to heaven or hell in response to something you do; or you go to heaven or hell regardless of what you do.

In the former case, the point applies... in the latter case, religion is futile anyway... it's an attempt to guess at the inevitable and uncontrollable.
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Unread 07-09-2003, 10:18 PM   #11
so much
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC
ALL religions are works-based at their core. Christianity is no different. Like it's said "faith without works is nothing". So therefore it would be faith AND works that save you, not just faith.
"Faith without works is nothing" simply means "Faith without works isn't really faith". Faith alone saves (see Ephesians 2:8-9), but faith inevitably produces good works which God has ordained for His children to walk in (see Ephesians 2:10). If faith does NOT produce good works, then so-called "faith" wasn't really faith to begin with (see your quote from James).

In His love,
Nate
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(b) This state or a political subdivision of this state may not create or
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Texas Constitution, Article I, Section 32"
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Unread 07-09-2003, 10:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Faith alone saves
And to go from "no faith" to "faith" takes the act of "getting faith".
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Unread 07-09-2003, 10:28 PM   #13
so much
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove
And to go from "no faith" to "faith" takes the act of "getting faith".
No, the action is "giving faith" and it is not our own. It is God who acts, we are merely passive recipients of His gracious gifts.

In His love,
Nate
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(b) This state or a political subdivision of this state may not create or
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Texas Constitution, Article I, Section 32"
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Unread 07-09-2003, 10:31 PM   #14
Contradiction is Balance
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove
In the former case, the point applies... in the latter case, religion is futile anyway.
My point exactly. Religion is works-based, every religion is. Even according to pastors. You don't put in x amount of money in the collection plate, you get a)the guilt trip, and b) major disappointment from God. If religion isn't works-based, why would this matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeyboardFreak
"Faith without works is nothing" simply means "Faith without works isn't really faith". Faith alone saves (see Ephesians 2:8-9), but faith inevitably produces good works which God has ordained for His children to walk in (see Ephesians 2:10). If faith does NOT produce good works, then so-called "faith" wasn't really faith to begin with (see your quote from James).
So what you are saying is that if someone truly believes, they will automatically do good things? Bull. I know people who believe, all over my church, and many of them are great people who do great things. Do they do great things simply because they believe in God? No. They do great things because they are great people. Also, if I don't believe, does that negate me from doing great things, simply because I don't believe? Take Mahatma Gandhi, for instance. He liberated almost a billion people from oppression, but he didn't believe in God. Are you saying that that wasn't a good work? Your point is self-contradictory, my friend.
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Unread 07-09-2003, 10:34 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC
My point exactly. Religion is works-based, every religion is. Even according to pastors. You don't put in x amount of money in the collection plate, you get a)the guilt trip, and b) major disappointment from God. If religion isn't works-based, why would this matter?
"major disappointment" results in hellfire? So, in your opinion, what allowed the criminal on the cross to go to Heaven?
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