Why are some Saved and some Damned?

Jeff · 06-30-2003, 07:00 PM

Beginning with a Calvinist perspective ( God does all things for the magnification of his own glory, and the damning of an individual and the saving of an individual glorify Him equally). What is God's basis for deciding the number of people saved and the number damned and which people are saved and which are damned? For example, why 5 billion rather than 4.9 billion and why Johnny's family rather than Billy's family? Why so many in the bible belt and so few in the 10:40 window? Why not damn all or save all?

psalm63adam · 06-30-2003, 07:13 PM

Well, if I was a Calvinist, I would say to you...

God says, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and compassion on whom I will have compassion."

or

God made some good pots and some bad pots and it's all for his glory.

But I'm not a Calvinist.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 06-30-2003, 07:21 PM

Well said parkway, I would say something similar, but once again, you got one of the few other non-calvinists.

I could point out this issue as well.

How would you like to go to heaven as a Jew murdered in the Holocaust, and three weeks later have Hitler show up and be afforded entrance as well.

God is just.

Joel · 06-30-2003, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Beginning with a Calvinist perspective ( God does all things for the magnification of his own glory, and the damning of an individual and the saving of an individual glorify Him equally). What is God's basis for deciding the number of people saved and the number damned and which people are saved and which are damned? For example, why 5 billion rather than 4.9 billion and why Johnny's family rather than Billy's family? Why so many in the bible belt and so few in the 10:40 window? Why not damn all or save all?

The Bible never seeks to answer that. The closest it gets is Romans 9 (like they pointed) and all it says is that He does what He does because He wants to and it is not anything that man did. We will only understand when we see His glory, like Luther said.

Tup · 06-30-2003, 11:08 PM

There are to many whosoevers and whatsoevers in the bible for strict calvanism to be true. I dont know alot... but i know that God doesnt want any one of us to be damned to Hell for all eternity. And if he didnt want any of us to suffer that then he himself wouldnt choose wheather we would or wouldnt. But rather we choose, and he either frowns on us or the angles in Heaven rejoice because of our decision. Regardless, because God is onipotint and all that stuff, he knows what we will choose. But i couldnt see someone so big, so loving, so powerful just deciding that your gona go to hell, and your gona go to heaven.

Jeff · 06-30-2003, 11:08 PM

ah, so no speculation at all as to what basis God uses to choose? Do you think that in God's infinite loving kindness, given the choice to either damn or save, while either choice glorifies him completely and equally, he might save rather than damn? When and why might he damn rather than save? If it is not for the greater glory, and it is not for the greater love of his children, what is it for?

MisterAgreeable · 06-30-2003, 11:10 PM

Can some Calvinist please explain why God didn't give me a monster truck?

Travis · 06-30-2003, 11:14 PM

Romans 9 addresses this issue explicitly, Jeff. It speaks of God wanting to "demonstrate His wrath." We would not be able to appreciate our salvation if we had no knowledge of the horrors from which we were saved, and it would be easy to take salvation for granted if it were given to everyone. Moreover, God demonstrates perfect justice and retribution when He damns the ungodly and demonstrates perfect love and mercy when He pardons them. It follows, therefore, that He would do both in order to illustrate His total perfection; doing only one or the other would not show His might and glory to the greatest extent possible.

**+Donny** · 06-30-2003, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Can some Calvinist please explain why God didn't give me a monster truck?

Because He doesn't like you and monster trucks are the devil.

MisterAgreeable · 06-30-2003, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by +Donny

Because He doesn't like you and monster trucks are the devil.

No, I take it back. "New and improved" plus-Donny is a meany.

(Who would have guessed that my 600th post would be so cheap?)

Jeff · 06-30-2003, 11:29 PM

God can regenerate us and yet he cannot make us appreciate our salvation without damning millions and millions of people? Why not just show his wrath through Christ's sacrifice? And you still have not answered why the specific amount of damnation? If damnation is necessary despite his lovign kindness, why not save a few more than he has planned?

Travis · 06-30-2003, 11:41 PM

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Originally Posted by Jeff

God can regenerate us and yet he cannot make us appreciate our salvation without damning millions and millions of people?

He could. I didn't insinuate that He could not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff

Why not just show his wrath through Christ's sacrifice?

That's God's choice, and it is not our place to question.

Jeff · 06-30-2003, 11:52 PM

You still haven't answered not one more or one less damned. Why the certain amount? Think on this: If it isn't because of the way it glorifies him, and it isn't because of his love for his creations, then why? I could understand if you said that damning glorifies him a little bit more, so he damned a little bit more than he saved, or if you said he doesn't love people that much, so he only saved a few. But you have only necessitated the damning of ONE object, not millions. If God is Love, why does he hate so many so much?

Cadence · 07-01-2003, 03:04 AM

You're asking GREAT questions Jeff.

Danny · 07-01-2003, 03:35 AM

While damning and saving both bring God an equal ammount of glory, saving A, while damning B, might not give God as much glory as damning A, while saving B, or damning them both, or saving them both might. The questions you're asking are a bit too general... I would assume that the ammount of glory (if glory can really be measured in such a way) received for each individual damnation or salvation would vary, depending on the individual damned or saved, and what the consequences of the salvation / damnation of that individual would lead to.

For example: A lives a life of sin, and ends up in a hell of a lot of trouble for it, has a miserable life, and dies. He is justly damned for his unrepentent sinfulness. His friend, B, is devestated by the unfortunate life of his friend, and decides to go about things differently. This decision leads to his eventual salvation. Determined to help people who might end up like his friend, A, he goes on to be an evangelist and many thousands of people are saved through him.

on the flip side: A becomes saved. A sits on his lazy ass and does nothing but goes to church every Sunday and pays his tithes faithfully. A's friend, B, leads a meaningless life of casual sin, and is justly damned. A dies and goes to heaven.

Obviously, in this example, the damning of A and the saving of B leads to a much greater good than the salvation of A at the expense of B.

That being said, all of this was merely a speculation, and grounded in nothing but the inner workings of my head, thus rendering them entirely worthless, aside from a possibly interesting speculation.

Good day.