Why are some Saved and some Damned?

Jeff · 07-05-2003, 02:58 PM

Yes. You are going in circles. We aren't talking about God's rights. We are talking about his love. I defy you to show a tresspass of God's justice in connection with saving all sinners.

First I have no right reading the bible, then you think I should read it? First of all, I HAVE read it. I quoted it and you ignored it. Second of all, it is YOU who are not saved. Good thing God has enough mercy to not blame your heresy on you and will show you the light at the judgement seat. Third of all, Didn't I just establish the biblical standard of what love is? Once again, I defy you to show how saving all sinners impedes God's justice.

Jeff · 07-05-2003, 03:04 PM

joel's dad, I do not claim that God compelled adam and eve to sin. I say that he caused them to sin by influencing their wills. This is why the part of my question that you ignored is so important. If free will exists, is it influenced at all by desires? If it is not influenced at all by desires, then is it completely random? If it is, then what is the source of said desires? Within the christian worldview, the only answer possible is ultimately God. You have no way out of this corner. I defy you to show how God did not cause Adam and Eve to sin. It was a hands on thing. Whether or not it is sin to cause them to sin is not the point. Whether or not God has teh RIGHT to do so is not the point. The point is whether God's infinite love would allow him to take it upon himself to damn previously innocent creatures so mercilessly.

Wally · 07-05-2003, 05:06 PM

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And yet, and yet, it does not show perfect love

something you smoothly bypassed and its why you are still arguing. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT PERFECT LOVE IS, GOD DOES. that is your problem. God's love isn't defined by your standard of love. He makes the standard because He made 'love'. thats it.

about adam "compelling" adam to sin, how's that? it simply doesn't follow that it's God's fault that adam sinned. he dropped the ball, not God. therefore, its just fine for God to damn him and everyone else to hell. he doesn't need to save you because you don't deserve it. how is that not loving?

Wally · 07-05-2003, 05:15 PM

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If free will exists, is it influenced at all by desires? If it is not influenced at all by desires, then is it completely random? If it is, then what is the source of said desires? Within the christian worldview, the only answer possible is ultimately God. You have no way out of this corner. I defy you to show how God did not cause Adam and Eve to sin. It was a hands on thing. Whether or not it is sin to cause them to sin is not the point. Whether or not God has teh RIGHT to do so is not the point. The point is whether God's infinite love would allow him to take it upon himself to damn previously innocent creatures so mercilessly.

our fallen desires are influenced by our fallen nature. our fallen nature comes from our rep. Adam screwing up. Adam screwed up because he wanted to know "good and evil". as far as God causing His desires, im not sure that i agree with. I lean toward Adam having free will and willfully throwing it away.

Jeff · 07-05-2003, 05:19 PM

willfully, yes, but we aren't debating whether he willed it. We are debating why he willed it. I defy you to show some source other than God.

Jeff · 07-05-2003, 05:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Wally

something you smoothly bypassed and its why you are still arguing. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT PERFECT LOVE IS, GOD DOES. that is your problem. God's love isn't defined by your standard of love. He makes the standard because He made 'love'. thats it.

about adam "compelling" adam to sin, how's that? it simply doesn't follow that it's God's fault that adam sinned. he dropped the ball, not God. therefore, its just fine for God to damn him and everyone else to hell. he doesn't need to save you because you don't deserve it. how is that not loving?

I just posted a scripture displaying what perfect love is. If you don't think the bible is sufficient enough to understand somethign as elementary as love, how can you be sure of your salvation by the bible's promise?

do you mena GOD compelling adam to sin? if so, you are still saying something stupid. Reread my post. I said that I am NOT saying that God COMPELLED adam to SIN. I said that God CAUSED him to sin. I am not saying that it isn't FINE for God to damn him and everyone else. I am saying that it isn't what LOVE does. LOVE keeps no record of wrongs. Love endures all. LOVE does not delight in evil! and yet your concept of God delights in it so much that he creates it and puts it in men's hearts just so that he can show that he is powerful. That is not love. Perhaps he has the RIGHT to do so since it was technically adam's mouth that ate the fruit and because God decides what is RIGHT and WRONG. But the definition of LOVE given in the bible does not match the actions that you say God has taken.

Cadence · 07-05-2003, 05:44 PM

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Originally Posted by joelsdad

I am a Calvinist and this statement is horse puckey. God is incapapble of sin and tempts no one to sin, nor forces anyone to sin. God allowed this present course to happen, but He never ever compelled Adam and Eve to sin.

But I thought God planned everything from the beginning of time?

Joel · 07-05-2003, 07:04 PM

BeautifulMess:

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But I thought God planned everything from the beginning of time?

Joelsdad:

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God allowed this present course to happen

Answer your question??? It was God's plan to allow it. He knew Adam would blow it, and from the beginning of time it was His plan to allow Adam to sin. He did not compel Adam to do so, but He allowed him to, and it was His plan to allow him to.

Jeff · 07-05-2003, 07:19 PM

so are you saying that Adam's choice was completely random and God only KNEW the outcome? If so, how is that sin? Why would a loving God make the results of a random occurance the basis for damning millions of people? Are such random occurances outside the power of God? Are you an Arminian? Do you know that God ordains all things? If God only allowed it, who made it so? If Adam made it so, why did he decide to make it so? Was it because he doubted God? If so, why did he doubt God? Was it because Satan tempted him? If so, why was Adam made so that he would be susceptible to temptation. How did satan become a tempter? Was he not created an Angel? If any evil began to exist in Satan, did it not first come from God? What does your assertion have anything to do with the argument at hand? Whether God ALLOWS people to become damned or damns them actively, the argument still stands. That is not love. Remember, we are not talking about what God is ALLOWED to do or what his RIGHTS are. God is ALLOWED to do anything he wants. Rights only exist if you have the power to take them. We are talking about what an INFINITELY and PERFECTLY loving God would do. if someone is said to BE love, isn't it safe to say that all actions of that being would be loving? this horse is dead. Admit that the bible contradicts itself in this fashion.

joelsdad · 07-05-2003, 08:43 PM

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joel's dad, I do not claim that God compelled adam and eve to sin. I say that he caused them to sin by influencing their wills. This is why the part of my question that you ignored is so important. If free will exists, is it influenced at all by desires? If it is not influenced at all by desires, then is it completely random? If it is, then what is the source of said desires? Within the christian worldview, the only answer possible is ultimately God.

If one influences free will then that will is no longer free. Once again in the book of James God cannot be tempted by sin, neither tempts He anyone to sin. FDree will is just that A will that is left to choose on its own. God fellowshipped with Adam and Eve and He allowed Satan to come in and tempt. he did not compel the choice, only foreknew the choice and allowed it to happewn. Why?? He didn't say and any of my speculations would be anywhere from 0-100% wrong so I shall not.

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so are you saying that Adam's choice was completely random and God only KNEW the outcome? If so, how is that sin?

No his choice wasn't random, it was a thought out willfully made choice on the part of Adam.

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Are such random occurances outside the power of God?

Noithing is outside the power of God.

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Are you an Arminian? Do you know that God ordains all things

No I am a staunch Calvinist, but I do not ascribe to hyper Calvinism which says God ordains all things. Gods predestination and election and ordaining only has to do with the elect and His plan for them. He does not ordain which pair of pants I will wear or which road i will take tomorrow. Things like this he has left to the perview of His children unless He wants us to wear a particular pair of pants and He will tell us.

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Why would a loving God make the results of a random occurance the basis for damning millions of people?

That is a question that has plagued many minds for many centuries. biblically it is because God has the right to do whatever He wants and we are powerless to stop HIm. He acts on the basis of His character which is holy,just,perfect and loving. That sth e best answer I can give you anything else is just random philosophy and as I said before could be from 0-100% wrong.

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If Adam made it so, why did he decide to make it so? Was it because he doubted God? If so, why did he doubt God? Was it because Satan tempted him? If so, why was Adam made so that he would be susceptible to temptation.

Adam made it so because he had the free will to choose and He chose wrong. Why was Adam made susceptible to temptastion--well the cop out answer that is correct is that God would still be glorified. But as for the minutae of why--the Bible doesn't say. but because we know God is absolutely perfect in everything then the plan that is in effect now is absolutely perfect--there coiuld be no better plan. Why? We will have to waitr till heaven to find out.

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. God is ALLOWED to do anything he wants. Rights only exist if you have the power to take them. We are talking about what an INFINITELY and PERFECTLY loving God would do. if someone is said to BE love, isn't it safe to say that all actions of that being would be loving? this horse is dead. Admit that the bible contradicts itself in this fashion

You confuse sentimentality and warm fuzzies with love. God could have made automatons and no one would have a choice like animals. We would be forced to obey our preprogrammed instincts. But god gave the angels and then Adam and Eve the greatest give a loving god could give--the ability to make a choice contrary to the one who gave you that power. We can plainly see that neither angels nor man can hold out indefinitely with true free will without failing. God could have not created anything at all and still be complete and entire within His triune self, but He chose to make the universe and angels and man, and He also gave us the freedom to obey or rebel. both rebelled and here we are. If you don't like it ---Oh well!! You can kick against it all you want but this is all there i. Y You can either trust that God knows the big picture and will not allow anything to happen that is less than perfect- or yoii ucan reject and suffer the price for rejection, but it still won't change the reality of the situastion. Just remember When man failed, God wasn't obligasted to rescue us from the penalty of our actions, but He sent His son to become our sin and ppunished Him in our place so we might gain etrernal life through Him.

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Answer your question??? It was God's plan to allow it. He knew Adam would blow it, and from the beginning of time it was His plan to allow Adam to sin. He did not compel Adam to do so, but He allowed him to, and it was His plan to allow him to.

Whether it was Gods original plan or the plan based on His knowing the ouotcome of allowing His highest creations to have free will is unknown for God hasn't revealed it to us . I won't speculate.

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But I thought God planned everything from the beginning of time?

Nope

QUOTE]joel's dad, I do not claim that God compelled adam and eve to sin. I say that he caused them to sin by influencing their wills. This is why the part of my question that you ignored is so important. If free will exists, is it influenced at all by desires?[/QUOTE]

Of course free will and free volition are influenced both by internal and extrernal factors, but the bottom line is that when someone has true free will, the choice is theirs asnd the responsibility for that choice is theirs.

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Yes. You are going in circles. We aren't talking about God's rights. We are talking about his love. I defy you to show a tresspass of God's justice in connection with saving all sinners.

If God wanted to He could save everyone, but according to the Word He won't so that settles thast argument.

saviorlover2000 · 07-05-2003, 09:21 PM

Jeff. We aren't going in circles. When we are saying that God has the right to do things, we are saying that He has the right to do it and still maintain His perfect love! I mentioned above that God's infinite love extended to some is no less than extended to all! Yes, you're absolutely right, God could have saved everyone, and upheld His justice and love! But we aren't arguing that God COULD have done something better, we're arguing that what God HAS done does not defy His perfect love; none of us here can answer why God did or didn't do something. We can't even correctly analyze whether or not God has done right in every case, because God defines right and wrong! I can't give an answer why God's love does not extend the same to everyone. My only answer is that they deserve it. Love keeps no record of wrong, but God does NOT love everyone in that kind of way as He does those He saves. It's hard to come to an argument about who God loves, and I don't wish to do so, but I can say with great certainty that God does not love those He saves in the same way as He does those He saves.

The main point is this: It is not up to us to ask whether or not God could or should do something, because of one attribute. You can't take God's love and make it mean that God cannot show complete justice to another, because that diminishes His love. God's attributes are infinite; you can't grade them on a curve and compare them to others! If God shows one attribute, it does not in any way mean His others are imperfect. Imagine if someone argued with the same mindset as you are, only instead of love they argued wrath? They could say "God should let everyone go to hell; He could have done so and still maintained love and mercy." But why is no one arguing this? Because even just by arguing your point, you are implying that God's love should in every case, override His sense of wrath and mercy.

Though I admit, calvinists as myself are often at fault with the other extreme; dwelling only on the justice, sovereignty, and wrath of God and leaving out love and mercy.

Wally · 07-05-2003, 09:25 PM

alright, Jeff, i don't really know what you're getting at. if you're trying to say that God isn't loving, fine, be wrong. if you're trying to disprove calvinism, get around to trying to disprove it instead of just trying set something up.

at the very least, tell us what the end result is s'posed to show us so we can just knock that down real quick

saviorlover2000 · 07-05-2003, 11:44 PM

Unless somone responds within an hour, I'll be gone for a week at Hume Lake, so good luck with the convo guys,
Stephen.

Jeff · 07-06-2003, 09:11 AM

So then, God has POWER over this free will, and yet does not influence it, for any will that is influenced is not free. However, this will is also not random. Let me give some definitions of random.

Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements.

Of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely, as in the testing of a blood sample for the presence of a substance.

Without a governing design, method, or purpose; unsystematically: chose a card at random from the deck.

So what I get is that this sin of Adam's was of a design, but since God did not INFLUENCE this free will at all, it wax completely Adam's design. The evil that made Adam fall to temptation came from within Adam, no?
Adam heard the temptation of his wife and boom that was it, he was fallen and all he could do and think was sin. I would ask two questions here then. 1 What was the point of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Adam's will was already free to do good and evil when he chose to eat the forbidden fruit. 2. How did the propensity for evil get inside adam? Where did it come from? or should I say WHO did it come from?

Here you are with this free will thing again. If NOTHING influences an occurance, it is said to be random, yes? Here we have God not influencing a will, right? well I would ask you, then, what DOES influence human will while God is not acting. Is it how they are raised? Are there any genetic factors? Are there any chemicular factors within the brain? Are there any social factors? Does sin nature factor in to any decisions?
BTW. How DO you choose which pair of pants you will wear? This answer could be important. Please do not neglect or look over any of these questions.

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biblically it is because God has the right to do whatever He wants and we are powerless to stop HIm

A

ll this crap about rights AGAIN?? All this crap about POWER? before I say again that we aren't talking about rights and that we are talking abotu the most perfectly loving act, let's do a little exercise. Suppose that God is not infinitely powerful. Suppose he is only slightly more powerful than humans and lives in another dimension- a dimension where the soul lives and where worshippers give you power. Suppose that if no one worshipped God, he would be defenseless and could be overthrown by a revolt of even a small number of souls. Suppose that when one of God's cronies, satan, rebelled, he just barely held onto his reign with the help of 2/3 of the angels and decided afterwards that he would need more than just angel power to stay around. He needed human souls. Quickly multiplying, social, freeminded- these are like the nuclear hot sauce of souls. So, he used up all his power to create their world in 6 days and had to rest on the seventh. However, his attempts to have Adam and Eve be fruitful and multiply lots of little worshippers were thwarted by Satan in the form of a serpent, who turned Adam against God. God knew that it would be hard to win the humans over, but he couldn't afford to let them all distrust him and deny his power, so he began work on his war plans. He destroyed all the evil humans that had multiplied with a great flood in a fit of angel power, allowing only one of his greatest saints to survive. However, this did not work out just right either, as sin again begain to spread. He knew that he must have some way to make his followers leave their sin behind. So began the people of Israel and God's threats and punishments for sin and cultural prostitution. With God's help, the Israelites were to take over their whole known world, but only if God could be assured that they would worship HIM and not be available to worship other "gods" the guises of Satan's followers. And so, for four hundred years, God and his angels dug a great pit in teh spirit realm and filled it with spiritual fire and brim stone, designating it for all demons and human sinners. However, God could knew he could not maintain his kingdom if he simply destroyed all of man kind. Some of the angels in his kingdom were already becoming weary from all the digging. They had thought that God was a patient, merciful God as he had told them. They couldn't understand why God would be so cruel in his punishment . That's when God got an idea. He would use that to his advantage. By brainwashing followers with a message of forgiveness of sin and " good God " propaganda from his son, promoting meekness and weakness in humans so that if they ever did have doubts, they would be unable to overthrow his tyranny. The angels were also delighted. They sang and danced with shepherds as God's son was born- unaware that all this was a trick. God was worried though. He knew that his words to israel survived. He went back and read them and saw that they didn't fit at ALL to his new message. Therefore, he had to make a connection to the new message, a New Covenant of sorts. He infested the bodies of the new testament writers and BOOM God is Love. However, his plan was still not completely successgul. There was still a big nucleus of unbelieving humans. God would not be able to use his brainwashing power on ALL of them directly because it would leave him too weak, and Satan could stage a second revolt at any time. So, he sent out missionaries in hopes that some day, his power would be great enough to come back, incinerating any followers of satan and defeating him in a final battle using the power that his christian nucleus would provide him. Unfortunately, the rennaissance and scientific revolutions have slowed his plan down a bit and God is still as of yet unable to defeat satan outright ( this makes sense in the light of the fact that the christian population has remained about the same for many years while Islam has grown quickly.) God has no qualms about lying to humans using the bible and visions, but if enough humans revolted, he could be overthrown. Suppose that. In light of that, the bible means nothing. In light of that, God has no rights. God isn't loving. And how would you know if that is or isn't true? Because the WORD says it?

The rest of your answers are bullflop. Blah blah blah love not rights, etc. etc. IT comes down to this. If anything influences a decision of the will, that influence ultimately comes directly from God. If nothing influences it, it is random. A or B. Choose one and we will argue from there.

There is so much of your answer "We know " this and " We know " that I would object to, but I really don't have the energy and I know that you would " smoothly bypass" the points anyways as you have thusfar in the thread. Now I know why Jerry doesn't like to debate with you.

If anyone wants to continue this via carefully outlined private messages, I will. Point, counterpoint. No more spewing. Question, Answer. Any less will recieve no response from me.

joelsdad · 07-06-2003, 01:33 PM

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The rest of your answers are bullflop. Blah blah blah love not rights, etc. etc. IT comes down to this. If anything influences a decision of the will, that influence ultimately comes directly from God. If nothing influences it, it is random. A or B. Choose one and we will argue from there

Well then yes-peole, places, things, physiology, weather, our past, our hopes all this and more plays an inportant influence in our decision making. Decisions for the most part are not random but based on many influences.

What pair of pants you put on is largely decided by the factors you deem important to coose which one (formal, casual, a girl you wishj to impress etc.) While they exert influence and a measure of control--it is you who makes the ultimat4e decision.

The tree of Knowledge was placed there for adam and eves testing. In order for a will to be free to choose there has to be a medium of choice. In the case of Adam and Eve, the choice is to obey God or disobey God. Did God place the choice there? yes He did! Did God allow for disobedience and sin with all its consequences? Yes He did! Could God have made it differently? I have to say NO NO a thousand times NO! for if God can choose between two alternatives, then one would be perfect and one would not and if God could make a less than perfect choice He would not be God! I don't understand the WHYS of why God did what He did. He just did. I do know He is perfect and all His decisions are perfect, so this is the only way God could have created the angels and man. And giving them a negative consequence was the only way God could have done it! I can give you some of the ideas as to why I think it is so, but once again I post the disclaimer that they are not very rooted in Scripture so they could be anywhere from 0-100% wroing.

By the wqay I liked your hypothetical idea of God. It has a logical (humanly spoeaking) ring to it. It also is an idea that runs similar to the Mormon philosophy.