[Travis]

Originally Posted by Bogieman

It seems like what you are saying is equivalent to a father allowing a lion to devour one child so that the other child will see how lucky he is not to be eaten.

Invalid analogy unless the child specifically deserves to be eaten by the lion as we deserve to be punished for our sins.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Travis

Invalid analogy unless the child specifically deserves to be eaten by the lion as we deserve to be punished for our sins.

That, and the fact that the non-elect are not children of God.

[joelsdad]

Again, here is what I am trying to understand, if we are either elect or condemned before we are born, how do we make ourselves wicked? How can one be judged and condemned for wickedness before he ever is wicked?

I think this question was answered well by thew Apostle Paul. Please read Romans 9 and you will get your answers to your why's. You won't like the answers for they are not satisfying to the human mind , but it is still Gods answer.

Of interest to note is the construct of verses 22 and 23 in the Greek./ Verse 22 is in a tense that shws that the vessels of wrath made themselves fit for destruction and verse 23 is very clear that God prepared beforehands , the vessells that would receive honor.

James 1;13 IS The definitive answer of whether God would cvompel anyone to sin--and the answer is no. Just because He allowed it in true free will creatures did not cause Him to compel the fallen angels and Adam and eve to sin. We have been having this argument n the thread of omniscince and free will and God never compels evil to be performed.

As to why God chooses some and not chooses others to receive mercy--once again the only answer we have is found in Romans 9--He wioll have mercy on whom He will. Why?? The bible is silent and so we must be, but just trrust that an all loving and all holy God knows what He is doing for reasons only He knows for now.

[saviorlover2000]

Hey guys,
This is my first post on this board, and I can't say I've read any pages in this thread other than the first three, and the last one, so if what I say has already been said in beteen then, sorry

I"m afraid when you get into the issue of, how does God decide who goes to heaven and whatnot, there'll always be a lot of vague answers. The truth is, we are human, and only know of God as much as the Bible has told us. Till we see Him face to face, the most we can know is what Scripture says.

So let's examine what God's Word has to say, before coming to the answer.

1. Ever since the fall, we have been born in sin.
Psalm 51:5, Surely I was sinful from birth....
2. Anyone sinful/unbelieving is uncapable of seeking God.
Romans 3:11 There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God
3. Sin is worthy of death
For the wages of sin is death...
4. God is sovereign, that is, He has the power to do anything.
I'd list a verse, but I think even just the word God implies omnipotence, so I won't go searching for a verse till its questioned.


Now that we have the premise, let's look at the world today; clearly, not everyone is saved. The world is still full of sinners, and atheists, and those following false religions.

So, if God is Sovereign, but the majority of the world is damned, then what conclusion can that lead you to? That God never intended for all to be saved.

You may say that that is being wicked, but if premises 1-3 are correct, then one going to hell is not getting injustice. Even hell is more than we sinners deserve. The very air we breathe, our life, our happiness (even if for the unbeliever is for a short time), are given out of mercy.

Let's say there's a court trial (this analogy has undoubtedly been used before). 10 men, brutally murdered a rich man's family. He has been given the ability to override the judge. Now, one by one, they pass by the court room, for the judge to sentence them to death. Suddenly, as number 7, who's crimes are just as bad, if not worse, walks up, the rich man says "Let him go." Then the trial continues, and no one else gets this freedom.

Next day, the newspaper headline reads "Unjust man sentences 9 prisoners to death". What defense does this man have? That all those who were sentenced to death, deserved it!

The rich man needs no reason to allow that one offender to go free; he has the power to give him mercy, but the fact that he did not give everyone mercy does not at all undermine his love, or mercy. Rather, those that were sentenced to death backed up his justice and wrath, and the one saved showed his love.

You know what the analogy means, I better stop there for now

Peace,
Stephen

[Jeff]

And yet, and yet, it does not show perfect love. It shows lacking love. It is unnecessary for God to damn anyone just to show his justice and wrath. I thought that was the point of Christ's sacrifice on the cross and the second coming. If God can express his wrath fully enough in the sacrifice of Christ to save a small group of elect, how come he can't do it for everyone else? By saving all sinners through regeneration and Christ's sacrifice, he would show both perfect justice and perfect love.

Either way though, it all seems a little out of the way. God could have made worshippers without first creating miserable sinners and subjecting them to horrible lives of sorrow, pain, and dejection. It also seems a little silly that God would be so insecure as to need to do all that just to have a few worshippers around his throne for eternity. If only the people who thought this up had a better imagination.

[saviorlover2000]

And yet, and yet, it does not show perfect love. It shows lacking love

Does it? Does God's not saving everyone mean that He has a lacking love? I do not believe it does. I would say that even if God had saved no one, His love would not be lacking; He is God, He is the moral standard for what is and is not good or lacking. The question is, if God loved everyone the same, is it more love than if He shows His infinite love by saving some? Mathematically anyway, infinite x few is no more or less than infinite X everyone. Also, the number of people God saves does not define His love, only reveals it to us.

It is unnecessary for God to damn anyone just to show his justice and wrath.

God does not damn just to boost His reputation or only to show His justice, that is of course one reason. But the main reason people go to hell is because they are worthy of hell, not because God chose to show His justice. A perfect judge would not let all go, and a perfect pardoner would not pardone none. The tough point is defining the point at which God fulfills both.

I thought that was the point of Christ's sacrifice on the cross and the second coming. If God can express his wrath fully enough in the sacrifice of Christ to save a small group of elect, how come he can't do it for everyone else? By saving all sinners through regeneration and Christ's sacrifice, he would show both perfect justice and perfect love.

Oh boy. I'll tell you right now, a subject like this is certainly not fun or easy to talk about it. Much of the answers are going to seem as if they are cop-outs. But biblically, the only reason I can find is Paul's.

Romans 9:19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--

I admit, I hate having to answer like this. But to give any other answer than this would be presumptious, and I am not in a position to presume the mind of God. We can marvel why, but when that marveling become accusing God of injustice, then the only answer I can give is the same paul gave. "Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?"

I'll say it again, I really hate giving this kind of answer, leaving much to mystery. But as the Bible leaves God's reasons for who He chooses to not be fully discovered till we meet Him face to face, I can give no other sufficient answer.

Either way though, it all seems a little out of the way. God could have made worshippers without first creating miserable sinners and subjecting them to horrible lives of sorrow, pain, and dejection.

Of course He could. But no matter what denomination you ask, none can wipe away that 'problem'. You could ask an Arminian, and they would say free will, but as God is omnipotent, to say He does not have the power to make those with free will still choose Him, it just adds more questions.

There is no roundabout answer I can give. God does not love everyone in the same way. If God was the God billy graham or television evangelists make Him out to be, one who infinitely and unconditionally loves all people the same way, wishing the best for every individual, offring them all equal chance to be saved...His power would be in question. The world is not perfect, and I must assume that God did not intend it to be easy, with everyone worshipping Him.

It also seems a little silly that God would be so insecure as to need to do all that just to have a few worshippers around his throne for eternity. If only the people who thought this up had a better imagination.

Maybe I seemed to imply that, I did not. God is not insecure, and He does not need to do all that to have worshippers around Him. He could have created us in heaven already, praising Him, no sin, no sorrow, and moreover, He could have the power to affect our free will and still all would come to Him.

But I think I'll let the people who thought it up give a sufficient answer.

Romans 9:14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Exodus 7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it."

Hard to find any simple answer. By the way, if you want a far better answer then I can give, go to http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/D...d/Archives.asp and click on either "The Freedom and Justice of God in Unconditional Election" or "The Hardening of Pharoah and Hope of The World"

Doncha hate me for these long posts?

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by saviorlover2000

God does not damn just to boost His reputation or only to show His justice, that is of course one reason. But the main reason people go to hell is because they are worthy of hell, not because God chose to show His justice. A perfect judge would not let all go, and a perfect pardoner would not pardone none. The tough point is defining the point at which God fulfills both.

That doesn't work completely under calvinism. Under calvinism God actively ordained man to fall, thus making it ultimately His fault. So they're only worthy of hell because God made them to be.

[Lyle]

Originally Posted by Jeff

And yet, and yet, it does not show perfect love. It shows lacking love. It is unnecessary for God to damn anyone just to show his justice and wrath. I thought that was the point of Christ's sacrifice on the cross and the second coming. If God can express his wrath fully enough in the sacrifice of Christ to save a small group of elect, how come he can't do it for everyone else? By saving all sinners through regeneration and Christ's sacrifice, he would show both perfect justice and perfect love.

So you take your human understanding and place God under your feet because His ways are higher then you can understand. Fine, you're human I can understand where you're coming from. Maybe it shows your lack of understanding concerning God. God is loving and all that, but He's also righteous, just, holy. He gave men rules and men broke those rules and He has every right the destroy them in hell forever. The Lord corrects those whom He loves.
God didn't have to send His son, that was a gift from Himself. He can and has reached out forgveness to the world, but the world loves darkness rather then light. The god of this age has blinded them so that they won't see the truth, because then the truth would set them free. Man exchanged the truth of God for a lie, therefore God being just, punished them and will punish them.
There is no sin that can enter heven, which is why Jesus is the only way, God's to pure even to behold sin, and yes He says He hates it. The only way into heaven whould be to repent and recieve Jesus as your savior, that your sins be forgiven.

Originally Posted by Jeff

Either way though, it all seems a little out of the way. God could have made worshippers without first creating miserable sinners and subjecting them to horrible lives of sorrow, pain, and dejection. It also seems a little silly that God would be so insecure as to need to do all that just to have a few worshippers around his throne for eternity. If only the people who thought this up had a better imagination.

This is where many split up on ideas, I'm one who believes in free-will and I have reasons for that. Gd made those who would be forced to worship and we call them angels. He created man to chose to worship Him and honor Him. Man brought their own sorrows upon himself. He could have been spared if He didn't eat from the tree, God has always offered a better way, man just refuses to see it because they're blind to His love. God doesn't need our love and we don't deserve His, He loved us because He loved us.

[Joel]

That doesn't work completely under calvinism. Under calvinism God actively ordained man to fall, thus making it ultimately His fault. So they're only worthy of hell because God made them to be.

You will find many calvinists say that Adam had true free will. God knew Adam would fall, but Adam had the ultimate choice to do right or not, because his nature was still sinless, so he was capable of deciding between good or bad.

[Jeff]

Lyle, whether or not I am placing God under my feet, you are still going in circles. God's justice is not called into question by saving all in light of Christ's sacrifice. God's justice is not called into question by His deciding not to place sin in the hearts of men and damn them for it. If anything, his justice is called into question BY His doing that. It's like training a dog so well that all he knows to do is run around in a circle, then giving him a smack across the eyes with a jagged stick every time he rounds a corner.

if Adam had a "free" will, I'd like you to define the nature of a "free" will specifically. Is a "free" will controlled by someone's desires? If so, what is the origin of the desires that control a "free" will?

[saviorlover2000]

if Adam had a "free" will, I'd like you to define the nature of a "free" will specifically. Is a "free" will controlled by someone's desires? If so, what is the origin of the desires that control a "free" will?

Good job. You've just figured out a very good argument against arminians.

Did God ordain the fall? I'd say a definite maybe. God foreknew the fall, and created humans knowing they would fall, but you seem to miss the point. God does not exist for our happiness; if He had, then the whole calvinism argument falls apart. God loves everyone, yes, but it is a love of pity, not of "I love them, and wish I could save them". That's a wonderful type of God to believe, but it simply isn't the Sovereign God of the Bible. Why does God exist? I cannot tell you. But I can tell you that He is not limited by lower powers, nor is there a higher power He must answer to. He is the "I AM who I AM" of Exodus, He has mercy on whom He has mercy, He hardens whom He hardens...God is a free, all powerful God who has the right AND justice to do anything He wills, even if only because He is. Sound like a different God than what most churches preach?

But I don't mean to sound emotionless. I can argue that God can do anything till I'm blue in the face, but that isn't all there is to God. God has love, an infinitely deep, saving love for His elect. That is the only thing that saves our wretched, falling race, the grace of God against those whom He has every right to hate. You can train a dog to go in circles then smack it, but the relationship with you and the dog is not comparable to God and unbelievers. You did not create the dog, so you may not do with it whatever you will. But God is the creater, the "potter" of Romans 9, and He does have the right to do whatever He wants with the clay, without regard to what the clay has done.

[Jeff]

Once again, we aren't talking about rights. We are talking about love. If God had perfect love, he would not create evil, put it into the hearts and minds of creations after his own image, then use a loop hole in justice to damn them to an eternity of misery.

[Jeff]

of course, for me to have the right to say that to you, you would have me work within the christian worldview. that's fine. Let's look at the biblical definition of love.


first corinthians chapter 13 says this:

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails.

We know that John has written that God IS love. This means ( if you agree ) that there is no better example of love than God- that God shows all attributes of love infinitely in the same way that God knows infinitely, is infinitely present, and is infinitely powerful.

Therefore, by logical extension, God is INFINITELY patient. God is INFINITELY kind. God NEVER envies. God NEVER boasts. God is NEVER proud. God is NEVER rude. God is NEVER self seeking. God is NEVER easily angered. God NEVER keeps a record of wrongs. God NEVER delights in evil and ALWAYS rejoices in the truth. God ALWAYS protects, ALWAYS trusts, ALWAYS hopes, ALWAYS perseveres.

you decide for yourself how loving your view of God's plan is compared to mine.

[Lyle]

Jeff, I'm not going in circles. God loves His own, God also has enemies. God is perfect and holy and just. And to be just sin must be punished. God is loving, and God is love. The Bible makes that clear. God is just, which is why He removed Satan from heaven, because He had to cast out the profane thing, because it was not worthy to be before Him. He has every right and reserves the rights to punish. Maybe it's your lack of understanding of what love is, and if you aren't saved you have no right even reading the ZBible. And frankly, you won't understand this. That God is just has been carried out through the whole Bible, maybe you should read it

[joelsdad]

That doesn't work completely under calvinism. Under calvinism God actively ordained man to fall, thus making it ultimately His fault. So they're only worthy of hell because God made them to be.

I am a Calvinist and this statement is horse puckey. God is incapapble of sin and tempts no one to sin, nor forces anyone to sin. God allowed this present course to happen, but He never ever compelled Adam and Eve to sin.

And yet, and yet, it does not show perfect love. It shows lacking love. It is unnecessary for God to damn anyone just to show his justice and wrath. I thought that was the point of Christ's sacrifice on the cross and the second coming. If God can express his wrath fully enough in the sacrifice of Christ to save a small group of elect, how come he can't do it for everyone else? By saving all sinners through regeneration and Christ's sacrifice, he would show both perfect justice and perfect love.

You forget Scripture--God damns no one--He just executes the senbtence deserving of the damned. Yes God could have saved everyone if He so chose to do so, but He didn't! So we need to focus on what the Word said he did and move on from there.

Once again, we aren't talking about rights. We are talking about love. If God had perfect love, he would not create evil, put it into the hearts and minds of creations after his own image, then use a loop hole in justice to damn them to an eternity of misery.

You can question Gods motives and the reasons why He allowed things (not forced things) when man and angels had free will, but it will still get you nowhere. God did what He did, He has the right to dso sop and we havew no right to questtion (as in challenge ) His authority to do whatever he desires.

if Adam had a "free" will, I'd like you to define the nature of a "free" will specifically. Is a "free" will controlled by someone's desires? If so, what is the origin of the desires that control a "free" will?

Biblically, free will is the right and the ability to either choose God or not choose Him. (to live righteous or reject living righteous) Adam and /eve had this until the fall and then it was lost because of sin. Beleivers have free will restored at slavation and thus have the ability to choose God or not choose God in every situation. Too many people mix up free volition and free will or use the terms synonmpously when they are technically very different.