Why are some Saved and some Damned?

Juli · 07-02-2003, 08:25 PM

Predestination was once illistrated to me this way. And it made some sense, not saying that I agree with it, but it's a new way (for me atleast) of looking at it.

God planned (predestined) a race and created them to be His for his glory. Then he "lost" them through the fall in Adam. So he doesn't say I choose this one and not this one, better yet says, This one is one I lost, and draws their heart back to himself.

That help any?

Jeff · 07-02-2003, 08:36 PM

lost? what happened? did they roll under the refrigerator?

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 07-02-2003, 09:52 PM

Proverbs 26:4

Wally · 07-03-2003, 12:51 AM

aight, i was thinking of this while out eating with some friends, yea, i know, its scary.

Why are some Saved and some Damned?

cuz God wanted it that way. verse quoted earlier "I'll have mercy on whom i have mercy...."

now from there, whats the problem?

FTS · 07-03-2003, 03:18 AM

Wally, exactly =]

Than · 07-03-2003, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

now from there, whats the problem?

Because Jeff is looking for the reasons behind the situation. The Bible doesn't seem to delve too far into the "why", however, at least what I've seen. Romans 9 is the best that I could find.

Lyle · 07-03-2003, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

cuz God wanted it that way. verse quoted earlier "I'll have mercy on whom i have mercy...."

Look at that verse more carefully. I don't want to get into all that C/A crap, but the verse is referring to the Children of Isreal in the wilderness, not it was said to Moses. It's about physical suffering, which is what mercy and compassion are commonly translated into

07-03-2003, 11:05 AM

Acts 7:51

Jeff · 07-03-2003, 11:35 AM

we are talking about souls that never got any chance. They are "technically" guilty, and they "technically" won't accept the gospel, but both of those are solely because of God's plans and actions. And yet, these are real people like you or me that will suffer unimaginably ( think about the worst pain you've ever felt both emotionally and physically ) for eternity because of God's actions which he needed not take. I'm not askign why God hates wickedness or the wicked. I am asking why God hates innocent people enough to make them wicked and them punish them for eternity. We aren't even talking one " vessel of wrath " We are talking billions of people who are not within your "Pale of Orthodoxy"

Now, if you don't like the emotional propaganda, I'll ask again, " Why not one more saved or one more damned? What is the signifigance of the specific number of the elect? If God says he wanted some from every nation of the earth, why didn't he say he wanted 500,000 or so from Georgia and the carolinas, a million or so from Texas, and 500 from the continent of Africa and 90 from southeast asia?" ( these are arbitrary numbers to reflect the widely differing ratio of numbers of christians from one area to the other- I have no concrete concept of population compared to christian inhabitants - but I am sure the numbers are available, and you know that the 10-40 window has scarcely any elect and the bible belt has most of them.)

Wally · 07-03-2003, 11:56 AM

Quote:

I am asking why God hates innocent people enough to make them wicked and them punish them for eternity.

God doesn't make you sin, therefore, he doesn't make you wicked. You sin, you make yourself wicked, and are justly condemned for your rebellion against God.

two the second paragraph,

Romans 9
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

we don't know the exact number. we don't know why. God hasn't told us why except that He wanted to make the contrast for the elect to the see the mercy they have been given. why doesn't He save everyone, cuz he doesn't have to, because they don't deserve it, because he doesn't.

some may object and say that not saving everyone is unloving, well, as Travis pointed out earlier, love is something that is meaningless apart from God as He defines love. maybe we should come in without our presuppositions....

Bogieman · 07-03-2003, 12:11 PM

Again, here is what I am trying to understand, if we are either elect or condemned before we are born, how do we make ourselves wicked? How can one be judged and condemned for wickedness before he ever is wicked?

(wally)God hasn't told us why except that He wanted to make the contrast for the elect to the see the mercy they have been given. why doesn't He save everyone, cuz he doesn't have to, because they don't deserve it, because he doesn't.

(me)It seems like what you are saying is equivalent to a father allowing a lion to devour one child so that the other child will see how lucky he is not to be eaten.

Jeff · 07-03-2003, 01:14 PM

exactly. God doesn't HAVE to save anyone, but how loving is it to refuse to?

Wally · 07-03-2003, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogieman

Again, here is what I am trying to understand, if we are either elect or condemned before we are born, how do we make ourselves wicked? How can one be judged and condemned for wickedness before he ever is wicked?

(wally)God hasn't told us why except that He wanted to make the contrast for the elect to the see the mercy they have been given. why doesn't He save everyone, cuz he doesn't have to, because they don't deserve it, because he doesn't.

(me)It seems like what you are saying is equivalent to a father allowing a lion to devour one child so that the other child will see how lucky he is not to be eaten.

well, i guess if the kid deserved to get eating by the lion. yeah.

Wally · 07-03-2003, 04:28 PM

my bad, i totally skipped the rest of your post, was laughing about the lions

Quote:

Again, here is what I am trying to understand, if we are either elect or condemned before we are born, how do we make ourselves wicked? How can one be judged and condemned for wickedness before he ever is wicked?

alright, we are only condemned in the sense that God has chosen to show us the saving grace required to know Him. With that in mind, the offer of the Gospel is sincerely made to everyone knowing though it will only be accepted by those whom He regenerates. not sure if that helps with the last question..if not, just say so, i'll try to explain better.

Wally · 07-03-2003, 04:38 PM

Quote:

exactly. God doesn't HAVE to save anyone, but how loving is it to refuse to?

its perfectly Just to not save everyone. we don't deserve it, therefore, we shouldn't be given it. God isn't controlled by love alone which i think is what your trying to imply. even if that was the case, what makes you think that your view of love is better than God's?