[Wally]

who said it ultimately didn't come from God? not me. God planned on it happening but didn't actively force adam to sin. why did it get there, show that God could make known his mercy upon us.

[Bogieman]

you- oo..its calvinism or calvinist, not calvanism or calvanist

me- Thanks Captain Spellchecker! (please note sarcasm)

How can you say that God chose some (active) and then allows others to choose for themselves (passive). This makes no sense. Is your explaination that God cared about some to step in and save them from their sin nature, and not about others so that they will be damned by the sin nature they will have eons in the future? Both have a sin nature. If God is active in one He is active in the other. Either God damns or He doesn't choose.

[Wally]

How can you say that God chose some (active) and then allows others to choose for themselves (passive). This makes no sense. Is your explaination that God cared about some to step in and save them from their sin nature, and not about others so that they will be damned by the sin nature they will have eons in the future? Both have a sin nature. If God is active in one He is active in the other. Either God damns or He doesn't choose.

how can i say that, easy. just type the words on the screen. why doesn't it make sense?

no, God didn't care about some to step in and save them, He saw that it would greater glorify Him by saving some.

no, it doesn't follow that God must be active in both or inactive in both. if that is the case, EVERYTHING that is effected by you making decisions is your fault. if you don't buy macdonalds and they go bankrupt, then everyone who is laid off is your fault? that doesn't make sense. just because we, or God, does one thing, it doesn't make Him responsible for something he doesn't do. its not like He hasn't shown them enough grace as it is that they should believe. they choose not to believe.

[Wally]

o, and sorry for trying to make you look a lil more intelligent by correcting the whole calvanism thing, i won't do it again.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Jeff

ah, so no speculation at all as to what basis God uses to choose?

I haven't seen that much arrogance in a long time. We cannot speculate what God thinks. God is altogether above and beyond our thinking. We are really in no position to speculate what God thinks or how He elects people. That is beyond us. To put it one way, God lives completely outside of time. We have no idea what it would be like to be outside of time, God sees things from end to end, not from what we can see here and now.


Note, I am not Calvinist, I am just musing, doing terrible, I know.

[Bogieman]

Originally Posted by Wally

its not like He hasn't shown them enough grace as it is that they should believe. they choose not to believe.

If one is either elect or damned prior to birth, how can one possibly choose not to believe? God actively, as you admit, stepped in to save some. It follows that some were left to not be saved, also active. It is therefore completely out of man's hand to believe or disbelieve.

Also your McDonalds analogy fails. It does not apply from the bottom up. It would be more correct to say, if the owner of McDonalds decided to shut down every resturant would he be also responsible for the family of an laid off employee going hungry?

Would you be saying that God is not responsible (though I don't really like that wording) for not choosing some? How is that possible? He does the choosing and passing, yet passes the responsibilty for His actions off to man? Not likely.

Thank you so much for helping me sould a little more intellegent. I am honored that you would care. :klol:

[Jeff]

Originally Posted by Wally

who said it ultimately didn't come from God? not me. God planned on it happening but didn't actively force adam to sin. why did it get there, show that God could make known his mercy upon us.

He didn't need to force adam. Had he used force, it wouldn't have been Adam's. Rather than used force, he altered Adam's mind so that he wouldn't need to force him. MAn is made in God's image, but modified to include sin a few days later. Or else sin is part of God's image.

About your inaction doesn't make wrong. We are not here to argue whether it is morally acceptable to deny life savign drugs to a dying child. We are here to argue whether a loving God would deny the proverbial "drugs" of salvation. That's loving? Would true, deep, earnest love fail to act on the behalf of his beloved? No. Therefore whether he does it actively or inactively, you cannot get around the fact that God hates those he does not save. The question then is " What are God's standards of deciding who he hates? " The standard is obviously not the law, because he loves the regenerate even though they break the law. The answer that comes to me seems to have to do with your idea that God sees everything all at once. When he created the regenerate, he saw them already washed in Christ's blood and so loved them enough to wash them in Christ's blood. Vice Versa for the reprobate (He saw them sinful and damned and so hated them enough to make it true ), however that seems to denote that God's plan is outside of and higher than God himself and that God is blind to any order of chronology and cause and effect. Do we have a nearsighted God? Does God's love not demand that his creations not be damned needlessly? Does he not realize that the sin of man is his creation and his doing? You talk of God as if just because a man actually raped the woman that he doesn't know that it is ultimately his own design. I wouldn't damn the man if I were God. You would think God would at least be as loving as I am- or else - is it MORE lovign to damn the man? There's a thought.

Perhaps, though, the fire is extinguished. Perhaps when people get to the judgement throne of God, they see God's wrath but are not destroyed by it. Perhaps God makes them realize their illness and then HEALS it, transforming and regenerating their mind so that they can recieve mercy- even after death. That seems to be the most loving scenario to me, and allows God to flex his biceps of wrath.

Or perhaps the wrath has already been poured out on Jesus Christ for all to see, and men need not quake in fear in Abraham's Bosom. Perhaps God can heal man with grace and love, making the race of man his children - his elect - and give them peace and enjoyment of his glory in heaven for ever and ever.

Or maybe not.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

Jeff,

In the Arminian perspective.

1) Man has a freewill with which he chooses to do evil. Originally chosen by Adam at the fall we are fallen creatures who invariably choose to sin based on our fallen nature inherited from Adam

2) God is 100% loving but also 100% just. His justice demands punishment for all who break his laws. (Romans 3)

3) We as men know by our conscience what good and evil are and choose evil. (Romans 1)

4) Because of our choice to do evil we are damned.

5) God provided an atoning Sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind. There is only one requirement. Faith and belief in God's son the Lord Jesus Christ. (ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:31)

6) It would have been perfectly acceptable for God to damn us all but instead provided a way for us to be saved.

7) Since the sacrifice of Christ was made and sufficient our damnation is not only just but also our choice to not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

8) And it is God's very longsuffering with sinners that let me live to the day I trusted him as savior and that last breath you took.

9) In other words, by your rejection of Christ, you are responsible for your going to hell. Same as a protestor who goes to jail for their refusal to move. The grace of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men. You reject it, you pay the price. It is that simple.

[Jeff]

Why did God shorten man's days if he intended on trying hard to save them all? Given a longer life, many who have been damned would have been won over.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

wrong Jeff. God was merciful.

How many were saved before the flood?

[Jeff]

we arent talking about what God is obligated to do, we are talking about if he is perfectly loving.

[BillSPrestonEsq]

aye, and look at why he shortened men's days. their wickedness and depravity which would cause less men to be saved. even this is an act of divine love.

[Wally]

aight, i don't have time to go through your whole post, i gotta run in a few mins. however, my point is this, we ALL DESERVE to go to hell forever and suffer eternally.

a better analogy would be a woman going to adopt a kid from an orphanage. would anyone call her evil if she went and adopted just one kid from the lot of them even if she had enough money to adopt and support them all? certainly not. in fact, she would most likely be looked highly upon for her mercy to the one and the fact that she gave one kid a better life. God is in the same situation, he easily has enough grace to spread out to everyone. however, we don't deserve it, we have no claim to. God isn't unloving because He doesn't give it to everyone. that concept just doesn't flow. we don't deserve it, He doesn't give it. thats it. however, God does show his love by saving some. we don't deserve it, He gives it to us, God shows love. This works, the former doesn't.

i'll be back later to try and explain myself a lil better.

[FTS]

It's funny, this whole thread was answered in one post, but has just continued because man cannot understand god's thought processes.

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and compassion on whom I will have compassion.

[Jeff]

so will I. Good for God. That means nothign to a man at all.