Why are some Saved and some Damned?

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 07-01-2003, 01:37 PM

Coop, I do not know. All I know is he takes no pleasure in it. That much is spelled out in scripture.

Tup · 07-01-2003, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

not sure where the 5 billion thing is going or came from. not really sure what you're sayin so....yeah, can't answer too well. sorry.

I believe the 5 billion/million thing was just an imaginary number to illustrate the idea. I believe what he originally ment was why are 4.9 billion damned while the othe 1 billion are not. Why arent all 5 billion damned or saved.

But in response to that situation... The 4.9 billion damned themselves while the 1 billion accepted Jesus and allowed him to save them.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 07-01-2003, 01:41 PM

but tup that is not from calvinism...

Jeff · 07-01-2003, 02:20 PM

1. raz, that isn't an answer. That is a refusal to answer. I didn't think God had anythign to hide.

2. Mister Agreeable, You'll have trouble finding out what my agenda is. It doesn't officially exist. I'm not workign for anyone. If this question causes trouble for you, it is only because it has caused trouble for me too.

3. MisterAgreeable, I think you'll note that belief and love in your God must be heart felt and genuine to be saving. How can I love him and have faith in his decisions if those decisions are arbitrary and cruel?

4. If damning a person causes displeasure to God, and he is all powerful and all of his desires are accomplished, wouldn't God seek to damn as little as possible? Even if his greater desire and will necessitated that he damn some, wouldn't he save all that he could? Is there some counteractive force, some fundamental difference between the chosen and the unchosen that prevents God from chosing them?

4. Joel, if Sin did not come from God, where did it come from? Did God not personalyl and intimately design sin and its mindset and then apply it to the human heart and mind so that they might rebel against him?

Coop Cooper · 07-01-2003, 02:41 PM

Jeff,

I'd appreciate your interaction with my post (#18).
Thanks,

jake

Cadence · 07-01-2003, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis

If you think he's helping your Arminian cause, think again. He's not a Christian. He doesn't believe the Bible and is, by all indications, a universalist.

Travis ....get off of it. I just said he's asking great questions.

Adam · 07-01-2003, 04:21 PM

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3. MisterAgreeable, I think you'll note that belief and love in your God must be heart felt and genuine to be saving. How can I love him and have faith in his decisions if those decisions are arbitrary and cruel?

1. Since when do human beings decide whether God's actions are good and cruel?

2. Do we define the attributes of God?

3. The idea of goodness is inherently implied in the idea of God. The idea of goodness is an exemplar that resides within God Himself. Therefore, goodness in all his decision are inherently good.

Danny · 07-01-2003, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeautifulMess

Travis ....get off of it. I just said he's asking great questions.

His "great questions" are attempting to prove Universalism (as far as I can see), and you're waving his banner because he's attacking Calvinism to get his point across. Do you not see the problem here?

Jeff: You're right, I probbaly was working foreknowledge and semi-free will into the argument, which wouldn't really have relevance here. My apologies. However, I would agree with Cooper. It's not that God is hiding anything from us, He's simply too complex to be fully understood by our finite minds.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 07-01-2003, 05:36 PM

Maybe Beautiful Mess sees it like I do. Hoping, praying you guys give good answers. Jeff is asking questions related to savation. If you are certain you are correct, give him good certain answers. I think he is asking good questions as well, for anytime an unbeliever is thinking about salvation and such it is a very good oppertunity. Don't waste it

Jeff: If you want a non-calvinist perspective I will be happy to give it.

Travis · 07-01-2003, 06:18 PM

Don't insult his intelligence. I think it's because he realizes that the Bible teaches Calvinism that he is specifically asking about it and arguing against it.

***BillSPrestonEsq*** · 07-01-2003, 06:28 PM

Don't insult my inteligence either Travis, I am no dumber than you, and unlike most of the calvinists here have demonstrated, I can field these with scripture.

Don't be so arrogant.

Travis · 07-01-2003, 06:32 PM

I'm sorry if I came across as though I was implying that my being correct (which I know is contested by you) was due to any more intelligence on my part. It wasn't intended, but I think it did come across that way.

Wally · 07-01-2003, 07:59 PM

Quote:

How can I love him and have faith in his decisions if those decisions are arbitrary and cruel?

neither one of those adjectives that decide God's decisions. If anything, they are made solely to glorify himself therefore making them not arbitrary but very purposeful. Cruel? He saved the elect on the cross, thats far from cruel.

Quote:

4. If damning a person causes displeasure to God, and he is all powerful and all of his desires are accomplished, wouldn't God seek to damn as little as possible? Even if his greater desire and will necessitated that he damn some, wouldn't he save all that he could? Is there some counteractive force, some fundamental difference between the chosen and the unchosen that prevents God from chosing them?

once again, God doesn't damn people, they damn themselves. Any concept of total depravity makes this very clear. about the number of those who are saved, im not God, neither is anyone on this board, or on the planet, so a personal answer is not gonna be possible. my theory though, cuz he wanted to?

Quote:

4. Joel, if Sin did not come from God, where did it come from? Did God not personalyl and intimately design sin and its mindset and then apply it to the human heart and mind so that they might rebel against him?

ultimately, sin came from God. however, He did not actively MAKE anyone sin. no, He did not apply it to the human heart, Adam and Eve had free reign to choose. their choice ultimately made our choice as well. so uh, no to your question.

joelsdad · 07-01-2003, 08:23 PM

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Can some Calvinist please explain why God didn't give me a monster truck?

cause He foreknew that you would get in tyo a lot of trouble with it. and it is too big for you to sit in anyway. :klol: :klol: :klol:

But onto answering the question Why does God do what he does concerning saving and Damning. The answer is is that we don't fully know> The person who posted the answer that God is truly free and completely free to do what He wants is about the closest correct answer there is! In eternity past, God chose this path, set it in motion and jknew it what the best path for created things. Why?? He didn't say and any speculation falls anywqhere from 0 to 100%wrong, so why bother?

The angels and Adam and Eve were the only creatures made with true free will. God knew that evil could be invoked with true free will creatures, knew they would fall and allowed it anyway,. Why?? We won't know till eternity. the only thing we can know is that it does not diminish the perfection of God and He knows what He is doing. And Romans 9 is correcrt--Who are we to question the mind of God? He was under no obligation to save a single soul. It would not have diominished His glory an iota nor would have suffered any loss in Himself if He chose not to save a soul. The fact is He did decide to save some and I just thankHin He chose me.

Joel · 07-01-2003, 09:26 PM

Quote:

4. Joel, if Sin did not come from God, where did it come from? Did God not personalyl and intimately design sin and its mindset and then apply it to the human heart and mind so that they might rebel against him?

Quote:

The angels and Adam and Eve were the only creatures made with true free will. God knew that evil could be invoked with true free will creatures, knew they would fall and allowed it anyway,. Why?? We won't know till eternity. the only thing we can know is that it does not diminish the perfection of God and He knows what He is doing. And Romans 9 is correcrt--Who are we to question the mind of God? He was under no obligation to save a single soul. It would not have diominished His glory an iota nor would have suffered any loss in Himself if He chose not to save a soul. The fact is He did decide to save some and I am just thankful that He chose me.

Probably the best I could give, Jeff. God created evil (Isaiah 45:7), and He knew we would end up damning ourselves ultimately. Yet He made us, and He let us fall. It was His will that we would do it. But, we also come to the point that God cannot sin. He, in perfection, created man to fall and damn himself. Yet He did it and is perfect still. I can't speculate. God did not make Adam sin, yet He knew Adam would and it was His plan to create the world as such.