[raz]

-
-
Since we're coming up on the 4th of July here, this is a great time to speak of a certain attribute of God -

He is Free! (I'm not using that term to portray a monetary amount, btw)

I'm talking capital F-R-E-E!!! In Romans 9:15, this is the jist of what Paul is saying about God. God is FREE! Did I mention He is Free?!?!? God is completely, sovereignly, wholly, absolutely free! He can do whatever He wants, whenever He wants, however He wants, for whatever reasons He wants, for how long He wants, etc., etc., etc.

He is not bound by what we think is 'right', how good or bad we are, how many people we think should be saved, by what means, etc., etc., etc.

We cannot fathom this kind of freedom. But it is the defining attribute of God's absolute sovereignty.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by Tup

Regardless, because God is onipotint and all that stuff, he knows what we will choose. But i couldnt see someone so big, so loving, so powerful just deciding that your gona go to hell, and your gona go to heaven.

You concede/affirm that God in his omnipotence and omniscience (sp?) will know what we will choose...
Therefore, if he KNOWS, then it will be so. If he knows everyone that will choose him, then the number of saved and unsaved is already set.
Thus destining them for salvation... right?

[Coop Cooper]

Jeff,

I think it improper to view God's decree of election/reprobation in terms of Him receiving more glory. God existed before men were created, and in that state God was all glorious. The measure of God's glory neither increases nor decreases, God is all glorious. God's creation gives God "glory" in the sense that everything that comes to pass is in line with His sovereign purpose, but this does nothing to alter the state of God. If two people are brought into the Kingdom, God doesn't grow by two glory units. Without creation God was all glorious and God didn't need to create such that He could increase His glory. That God created is owed to the counsel of His sovereign will. Not a vain pursuit to increase the measure of His majesty. God is unchanging and from beginning to end will always be "all glorious."

[Jeff]

1. Nighthawk: Ah but we are talking from a calvinist perspective. Why would God inspire A to live a lazy life as a christian? If God can take the time to unconditionalyl call and regenerate A, then he can make A's life as great a glory to Him as he chooses, and as great a glory as B. It sounds like you are taking elements of foreknowledge arminianism and putting them into the argument.

Also, assuming that you are right that, for example, your salvation is more glorifying than mine and my damnation is more glorifying than my salvation, what is the difference between two babies that don't live past the first year of life? They haven't made any choices and they don't have a future. I suppose that's a grey area for any calvinist though.

2. America is free too, and we behave in very much the same way as God. That doesn't mean we are good or right.

3. My question still stands. Why does God hate the reprobate when he made them reprobate? Why did he take the time to knit them in their womb? Why create them only so that they can suffer for eternity with no rest? Why create sin and then engulf a person's mind with it through a childhood of abuse and unlove? Why then not show his mercy through healing the person at death from their sin and allowign them to understand his mercy completely, glorifying him completely?

[raz]

I think we have answered the question, you're just not listening to the answer given.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God's answer to Jeff is; 'So I need to give you a good reason for why I do things? Where were you, Jeff, when I formed the Heavens?' This answer is given over and over in scripture; to those that question God, who think they can fathom His ways. I'm not trying to slam you, I'm just trying to get you to understand what I'm saying.

The final answer is because it pleases Him; it's what He wants to do.

He doesn't need any other reason. He doesn't even need that reason, but it's the one He gives.

[MisterAgreeable]

Jeff, I don't even understand what you're asking anymore. Is this attempting to discredit Calvinism? If so, it is a sad day indeed for the C/A debate when the setting up of absurd false dillemas is the best the opposing side can offer as a refutation.

Calvinism now is called on to answer with precise mathematical accuracy how man will be saved. We have to know why some are damned. How obviously unbiblical it must be if can't do that! I bet those Calvinists with all their big claims don't even know exactly how many people were fed with the five loaves and two fish. They don't even know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!

Calvinism is a description of how some people interpret the Bible. It is tested by its adherence to scripture. Where the Bible is silent, Calvinism is silent. Do you recall that passage about exactly how many will be saved and why? No? Might that be your answer? Maybe your answer is that we were told specifically that God doesn't owe us any answer at all.

"Soli Deo Gloria," frankly, solves all such problems. We know that all of reality serves to glofify God. Sometimes He gives us a more specific answer in some area. Sometimes He does not and that's fine too.

My recommendation is to read Romans 9.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by BeautifulMess

You're asking GREAT questions Jeff.

If you think he's helping your Arminian cause, think again. He's not a Christian. He doesn't believe the Bible and is, by all indications, a universalist.

I’m not so sure the glory is even, if it is why then would all of heaven rejoice at the returning of ONE lost sheep.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by vistor

I’m not so sure the glory is even, if it is why then would all of heaven rejoice at the returning of ONE lost sheep.

Because it shows God's amazing love and mercy.

Read Revelation 16 when God mercilessly punishes the wicked by pouring out bowls of wrath upon them. The angels in heaven rejoice and praise God for doing so, for the retribution is just.

[MisterAgreeable]

Hey Jeff,

Maybe I'm dense, but I didn't know you weren't a Christian when I wrote that. It's my policy to only be a jerk to brothers-in-Christ. It seems to me that since you haven't signed off on our system of beliefs you may as well critique it.

I can only assume you're posting either to taunt us with the silliness of our beliefs, or because you have some unresolved issues with Biblical Christianity that prevent you from adopting it. I'll go ahead and assume the latter.

You've been around a while, so you probably know this, but I'll say it anyways. It might not even be relevant to your particular situation : you don't pick Christianity because the Christian God meets your definition of what is good. You pick Christianity because you believe the Christian God created the universe. From there you model your view of goodness itself from Him.

Yes, we hold our God to be utterly loving. But he's utterly just. And he is all-powerful. And he's all-knowing. So, sure, he knew how much pain would be present in the world. He knew that all your friends and relatives would suffer and die. We can't convince you that His ways will always make sense to you or anyone else. But if you believe He is God, you simply must do what He says and take His word as truth. Nothing else is rational.

Doing what He said gets people into trouble and has them do things that violate what they otherwise knew to be proper. People have been told to sell all their stuff, or to marry a prostitute. People have been told to kill their son and failure to do so is simply irrational.

I'm sure over in apologetics (or here or wherever) we'll be more than happy to try to convince you that our God lives. That He sent His son for His people. We'll never be able to second guess all His ways, of course, because a God that graspable strikes me as no God at all.

I think that's the best we can offer you at this point. To quote Calvin "the voice of the gospel is addressed generally to all, yet the gift of faith is rare." You seem to be trying hard to make sense of Christianity, so I have to hope for the best.

[Joel]

Just a quick though to correct: You asked, "Why does God damn some and not others?"

God doesnt need to damn us; our own sin nature does that. What He does is chooses to redeem some and not others.

Therefore, the question should be, "Why does God redeem some and not others?"

[Tup]

I dont think that God damning someone brings Glory to him at all. Where in the Bible does it say that... or did you have a divine revalation. And the number would be 4.9 million instead of 5 million because 4,9 million didnt choose him, that othe 1 million did choose him. That make since?

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Tup

I dont think that God damning someone brings Glory to him at all. Where in the Bible does it say that... or did you have a divine revalation. And the number would be 4.9 million instead of 5 million because 4,9 million didnt choose him, that othe 1 million did choose him. That make since?

much like Joel said, God doesn't effectively damn people. he lets you damn yourself. the glory recieved comes from God showing his perfection through his perfect Justice (although im sure he is glorified throughout the whole process).

not sure where the 5 billion thing is going or came from. not really sure what you're sayin so....yeah, can't answer too well. sorry.

[Joel]

I dont think that God damning someone brings Glory to him at all.

He doesn't. We do. God does not rejoice in the damning of the wicked either, but He does get His glory even from a horrendous thing like that. He gets glory because His justice is pronounced, much like what Wally said.

[Coop Cooper]

Is God pained by the damning of the wicked?