How do we explain this?

Visirale · 06-19-2003, 09:59 PM

I stumbled upon this site, and I was wondering... how do we explain it? I mean I'm not a theologen or anything but... It's just confusing...

http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/dawah/0009.htm

Luke · 06-19-2003, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Visirale

I stumbled upon this site, and I was wondering... how do we explain it? I mean I'm not a theologen or anything but... It's just confusing...

http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/dawah/0009.htm

I would point out that the burden of proof lies on the person claiming the contradiction to show that one necessarily exists.

It is worth noting that one of the errors is, in fact, an error...there's a typographical error in one of our original Hebrew documents on #6. And some of them are just silly (#3 is obviously rounding, #10 the seven only referred to birds and such)...

Grace & Peace
Luke

Chrysostom · 06-19-2003, 10:37 PM

We'll examine the first five. These same kinds of errors appear throughout the rest of these 101 "contradictions."

Argument: 1. Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
God did (2 Samuel 24: 1)
Satan did (I Chronicles 2 1:1)

My Response: And God can't use Satan to accomplish His goals?

Argument: 2. In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?

Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
One million, one hundred thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)

My Response: The 800K in 2 Sam 24:9 does not include the 288K of 1 Chron 27:1-15 or the 12K of 2 Chron 1:14. 800K + 288K + 12K = 1100K

Argument: 3. How many fighting men were found in Judah?

Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)

My Response: The 470K does not include the 30K of 2 Sam 6:1. 470K + 30K = 500K.

Argument: 4. God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?

Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)
Three (I Chronicles 21:12)

My Response: The more reliable manuscripts use 3 in 2 Sam 24:13. There was probably a copyist error in the others.

Argument: 5. How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?

Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)
Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2)

My response: Read the NASB, which relies on more reliable textual scholarship than the KJV, and records Ahaziah as having been 22.

Chrysostom · 06-19-2003, 10:38 PM

Again -- this belongs in my forum

Will a Mod please move this and BeautifulMess' threads to Apologetics?

ChrisHarbison · 06-20-2003, 12:00 AM

Ah, nice to see the Muslims defending their cause.

Ok, but seriously, as John's pointed out, with the slightest of intellectual effort by actually READING the Bible (what a concept), these can clearly be shown NOT to be contradictions.

One thing I'd like to point out is how utter UNIMPORTANT these "contradictions" are. Assuming they were all 101 true, how does someone's mistake on how many camels Shamir had or didn't have disprove Christianity. And further, it in NO WAY proves Allah to be god and Islam to be true.

RJ1 · 06-20-2003, 01:36 AM

Those were some pretty crappy contradictions. Most of them had to do with numbers......which didnt have to do with anything. I found out something when i was looking at these. This guy who did these contradictions didnt read all the verses in the chapter. If he did, then he would know that a lot of those are wrong. Those other verses pile on to the verses he used. I mean...im not that good at Theology and all but....dern.....this dude is a fruit,lol.

Harmonic · 06-20-2003, 01:53 AM

These contradictions if you read the chapters around the verses giv'n sometimes dont even take part in the same subject, others numbers are involved, and others are just complete guesses. Some of these are laughable.

~Harmonic

MisterAgreeable · 06-20-2003, 09:06 AM

I've read at least two rebuttals of this very list. It really is a poor list of contradictions.

Here's one. It's got some interesting background info on the nature of some of the contradictions.
http://debate.org.uk/topics/apolog/contrads.htm

JerryLove · 06-20-2003, 11:42 AM

Quote:

My Response: The 800K in 2 Sam 24:9 does not include the 288K of 1 Chron 27:1-15 or the 12K of 2 Chron 1:14. 800K + 288K + 12K = 1100K

2Chron 1:14 lists 12k horses to pull 1400 chariots.

In addition to you taking horses and calling them fighting men, the strong indication of the fact that the two passages are functionally identical does not suppoet that they are different counts:

"Joab reported the number of the fighting men to David: In all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who could handle a sword, including four hundred and seventy thousand in Judah."

" Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand. "

Forget about which count is accurate... which account is accurate? Joab reported one or the other... therefore the Bible is in error as to what Joab reported to David.

Chrysostom · 06-20-2003, 11:49 AM

(JerryLove) 2Chron 1:14 lists 12k horses to pull 1400 chariots.

(Me) 2 Chronicles 1:14
Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen. He had 1,400 chariots and 12,000 horsemen, whom he stationed in the chariot cities and with the king in Jerusalem.

(JerryLove) In addition to you taking horses and calling them fighting men, the strong indication of the fact that the two passages are functionally identical does not suppoet that they are different counts:

"Joab reported the number of the fighting men to David: In all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who could handle a sword, including four hundred and seventy thousand in Judah."

" Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand. "

Forget about which count is accurate... which account is accurate? Joab reported one or the other... therefore the Bible is in error as to what Joab reported to David.

(Me) The two are counting differently (as explained above). So, by the counting system of Chronicles, one thing happened. By the counting system in Samuel, another thing happened. However, of you convert one counting system to the other, there is no contradiction.

If I call red 'red' and you call red 'rouge,' then I tell my friend that I have a red shirt and you say that you have a rouge shirt, we're not contradicting each other. We're just using different ways of saying compatible things.

JerryLove · 06-20-2003, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen. He had 1,400 chariots and 12,000 horsemen, whom he stationed in the chariot cities and with the king in Jerusalem.

Sorry, different bibles default to different words where... assuming "horsemen", I must also assume "charioteers", bringin our total up by 1400.

Quote:

The two are counting differently (as explained above). So, by the counting system of Chronicles, one thing happened. By the counting system in Samuel, another thing happened. However, of you convert one counting system to the other, there is no contradiction.

I'll repeat:

Forget about which count is accurate... which account is accurate?

IOW, I don't care how many soldier there actually were, I care how many Joab said there were.

Either he said 1.1m, or he said 800k. He did not say both at once... In either case, one innaccurately represents the actual words of Joab.

Chrysostom · 06-23-2003, 04:59 PM

(Previous) Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen. He had 1,400 chariots and 12,000 horsemen, whom he stationed in the chariot cities and with the king in Jerusalem.

(JerryLove) Sorry, different bibles default to different words where... assuming "horsemen", I must also assume "charioteers", bringin our total up by 1400.

(Me) So, it would be 1,101,400. Considering the fact that 1.1 million is a much more round number that 1,101,400, I would see no problem in the Chronicler rounding off the 1400.

(Previous) The two are counting differently (as explained above). So, by the counting system of Chronicles, one thing happened. By the counting system in Samuel, another thing happened. However, of you convert one counting system to the other, there is no contradiction.

(JerryLove) I'll repeat:

Forget about which count is accurate... which account is accurate?

IOW, I don't care how many soldier there actually were, I care how many Joab said there were.

Either he said 1.1m, or he said 800k. He did not say both at once... In either case, one innaccurately represents the actual words of Joab.

(Me) It was never a requirement to reproduce the exact words. The requirement is to reproduce the content of those words. The two accounts accurately reproduce the actual message conveyed.

JerryLove · 06-23-2003, 05:36 PM

Quote:

It was never a requirement to reproduce the exact words. The requirement is to reproduce the content of those words. The two accounts accurately reproduce the actual message conveyed.

So then the Bible is correct in the sense that the intent is correct, not that it is literally correct?

So Jesus could have been crucified on a tree, not a cross; and Noah could have gotten most of the animals in a rain that lasted 35 days instead of 40; and Jesus could have risen 5 days later, not 3?

I understand the concept of a copy error, and I'm not about to push that such a thing is problamatic at this point... This is not a copy error, this is two different accounts of the same conversation.

Chrysostom · 06-23-2003, 10:36 PM

(Previous) It was never a requirement to reproduce the exact words. The requirement is to reproduce the content of those words. The two accounts accurately reproduce the actual message conveyed.

(JerryLove) So then the Bible is correct in the sense that the intent is correct, not that it is literally correct?

(Me) A "literal" hermeneutic is a myth. I do not support such a view. It is correct to read the Biblical books as they were written, rather than as a modern literalist would. So, for instance, when events in the Gospels are not all ordered chronologically, there is no problem, because Jewish literature of the time did not assume chronological ordering.

(JerryLove) So Jesus could have been crucified on a tree, not a cross; and Noah could have gotten most of the animals in a rain that lasted 35 days instead of 40; and Jesus could have risen 5 days later, not 3?

(Me) No, because those are content errors. The difference between the two accounts in question are categorical. In other words, let's suppose that I provide this inventory list:

5 tomatoes
3 apples
6 carrots

Suppose that someone considers tomatoes vegetables. He might say, then, that there are 11 vegetables and 3 fruits. Alternatively, if he considered tomatoes to be fruits, he might say that there are 8 fruits and 6 vegetables. Granted, this is an imperfect analogy. However, if two different people provide the same information, but choose to use different categories, there is no problem. It is only when the actual content is changed. I've tried to argue above that the difference between the two accounts is only categorical, not actually substantive (as the numbers match up correctly).

JerryLove · 06-24-2003, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Suppose that someone considers tomatoes vegetables. He might say, then, that there are 11 vegetables and 3 fruits. Alternatively, if he considered tomatoes to be fruits, he might say that there are 8 fruits and 6 vegetables. Granted, this is an imperfect analogy. However, if two different people provide the same information, but choose to use different categories, there is no problem. It is only when the actual content is changed. I've tried to argue above that the difference between the two accounts is only categorical, not actually substantive (as the numbers match up correctly).

Again you try to force the issue to "how many soldiers were there". I don't care. The question is "what did Joab say to David".

We have two conflicting statements, in quotes, as being said by Joab. Joab did not, in fact, say one of them... how many other quotes from the Bible are not what was actually said by the quoted party?